Getting a good flood on the auto?

[brandon]

And I would pay for that as well, Colin!

[jvanick]

I would pay too... we're doing more and more discharge these days, and I hate the raw experimentation that seems to come along with it.

[IntegrityShirts]

First a comment on ink flow/stirring.

All Inks are tested in the lab before being released to the public.  All viscocity testing is done with the ink at 72 degrees fahrenheit.  This is why you see proper print characteristics when the ink is warm.  That's how it is tested.

Now a very quick very very basic breakdown on ink chemistry.

Viscocity Buster = Plasticiser

Curable reducer = Resin and Plasticiser.  No Filler. No thickener.

Chino Base, Fashion Soft, etc... = Resin, Plasticiser, some filler for effects, and very little thickening agent like Cabosil (Fumed Silica).  They are all a little thicker than standard Curable Reducer.

Ink Bases = Resin, Plasticiser, some filler ingredients for rheological/adhesive/opacity/flashing purposes.  Thickeners for desired effects/rheology.

Finished inks = Resin, Plasticiser, filler ingredients, thickeners, and supporting chemicals based on end use.

Quickest way to reduce viscocity of white is by using the most fluid product available.  That is plasticiser.  But if you over add you end up with extended flash times and/or the potential for not curing.

Second quickest way is to add curable reducer.  It has no viscocity modifications and will create flow that much faster.  Yes, it can extend flash times.

3rd option is a lower viscocity base of your personal choice.

However, this is screenprinting.  We all have our personal opinion on proper flow and print characteristics.  If I get my best print characteristics by using curable reducer and someone else gets their best print characteristics by adding the thickest base known to man.  Then they are both correct answers.

I believe the reason why Alan went with the base in his white is because it improves the screen shear of the ink while also keeping it's viscocity low and rolling just enough.  Curable reducer does not change drag/shear qualities of an ink.

The short answer on the Street Fighter ink.  It's inconsistent.  I have been using it for the last year and it..... frustrates me.  Sometimes it's "runny" lower visc.  Sometimes it's very short bodied and reminds me of old XOLB-158.  Most of you will understand that reference.  Flash times on the SF are not consistent as well as the opacity. 

Conclusion, it is a cheap white.  A Very Good cheap white.  As a result, you learn to work with it, or search for a new white..... like me.

My 2 cents.

Awesome info Colin. Here's a "technical" question. What additive makes white inks "stringy"? I have noticed most 100% poly inks are super stringy and flow/roll well on the flood.  The short-bodied 158 of course would never do that. The LAST 5 gallon of Miami Superior white I had was stringy, but this 5 gallon is certainly not, it's thicker than 158.  It now lives in the exposure closet with a heater on  for the winter, I have added curable reducer to get it to flow and mixed the living hell out of it but it does lack the sheer that the previous bucket had.  I think it had to do with the stringy-ness (technical term)?

[gtmfg]

I'd pay for some info in discharge. It's gotta be cheaper then the amount of wasted garments that I have at the end of every discharge job. I probably look like a sketchy cat after most of the discharge jobs we've run. Just saw a discharge job come in yesterday and my blood pressure is already rising.

[alan802]

I'd love to know what makes an ink long bodied and short bodied as well.  There isn't (I haven't found one yet so doesn't mean it doesn't exist) a poly ink that I've tried that has a short body to it therefore they are all extrudable and more difficult to work with.  They do tend to matte down the fibers and cover really well but a short bodied white is ejectable and therefore shears from the screen with ease and is more desirable when reaching for maximum opacity with one stroke.  Whatever makes the poly ink bleed resistant is making the ink long and stringy, that much I do know, but I can't wait for Colin to comment on this.

[IntegrityShirts]

I'd love to know what makes an ink long bodied and short bodied as well.  There isn't (I haven't found one yet so doesn't mean it doesn't exist) a poly ink that I've tried that has a short body to it therefore they are all extrudable and more difficult to work with.  They do tend to matte down the fibers and cover really well but a short bodied white is ejectable and therefore shears from the screen with ease and is more desirable when reaching for maximum opacity with one stroke.  Whatever makes the poly ink bleed resistant is making the ink long and stringy, that much I do know, but I can't wait for Colin to comment on this.

I agree that poly inks are a little harder/slower to move across the screen, but the last fiver of Miami had a little string to it and was, for lack of a better word, creamy? I went down great with one hit, sheered perfectly.  This new fiver is a completely different ink and I'm struggling now to add things to it to "fix" it and get through the damn ink.  Softee base is going in today and I'm going to do a full drilling top to bottom, there's about 50% left. The drill is going to hate life today.

[inkman996]

I'd love to know what makes an ink long bodied and short bodied as well.  There isn't (I haven't found one yet so doesn't mean it doesn't exist) a poly ink that I've tried that has a short body to it therefore they are all extrudable and more difficult to work with.  They do tend to matte down the fibers and cover really well but a short bodied white is ejectable and therefore shears from the screen with ease and is more desirable when reaching for maximum opacity with one stroke.  Whatever makes the poly ink bleed resistant is making the ink long and stringy, that much I do know, but I can't wait for Colin to comment on this.

I agree that poly inks are a little harder/slower to move across the screen, but the last fiver of Miami had a little string to it and was, for lack of a better word, creamy? I went down great with one hit, sheered perfectly.  This new fiver is a completely different ink and I'm struggling now to add things to it to "fix" it and get through the damn ink.  Softee base is going in today and I'm going to do a full drilling top to bottom, there's about 50% left. The drill is going to hate life today.

Wow it sounds like me and you got ink from the same batch. I am almost at the point of shelving it and not using it again, or mixing some poly white into it.

[IntegrityShirts]

Wow it sounds like me and you got ink from the same batch. I am almost at the point of shelving it and not using it again, or mixing some poly white into it.

Yeah it got exponentially worse with the colder shop temps even after keeping it in a heated room.

[Colin]

The "length"/"stringy" Vs. a short bodied ink is, essentially, alllll about resin choices.  That is where the Great Majority those properties come from.  Drag is also imparted by resin choices.  Shear is imparted through several sources working in combination....

There are a couple additives that can help mitigate Some of the drag, but not all.  Also, plasticiser has a small impact on rheology to a point.  There are thicker (higher viscosity) and thinner (lower viscosity) plasticisers available.  The thicker ones can impact drag and how stringy an ink is in very minor ways.  Same thing with other additives.  The additives also impact whether or not an ink will climb the squeegee or stay down and roll..... lots of combinations that can impact ink "flow" or "slump" - how well an ink relaxes on the squeegee and slides down instead of climbing.

Primarily it is a resin choice.  The resins that do best for High Adhesion to poly and nylon have stringy/long properties.  Also resins that help with bleed resistance have those properties as well.

Another thing to look at with the Miami White.... is did it get to hot?  Heat in either manufacturing or transport can make an ink soooo thick it is almost unusable even after heavy modification.

Always contact your supplier or the manufacturer and have them check the batch number.

Damn, gotta run out the door for work. 

Have a good one!

[alan802]

I've gotten white inks from the biggest ink manufacturers that have become unstable for no apparent reason so it's not just limited to the Miami whites.  I know those guys say their inks are always stable and won't lose anything as long as you stir them regularly but even the best inks have broken down prematurely in our shop.  They start out creamy and nice but then become stringy like chewed bubble gum. 

[tonypep]

They won't admit it but most (pls) ink companies buy their raw materials from a very large ink company which will remain nameless. Also not discussed in availabity of said raw materials and their consistencies and occaisionally lack thereof. Which (also not talked about) can result in re-formulation.
When thats done the ink runs through the usual testing for viscocity, opacity, and other rheological traits. Except, as printers, we pick up on things that they miss. Adding puff to a white is a well known bandaid to make up for weak raw materials for instance.

[alan802]

They won't admit it but most (pls) ink companies buy their raw materials from a very large ink company which will remain nameless. Also not discussed in availabity of said raw materials and their consistencies and occaisionally lack thereof. Which (also not talked about) can result in re-formulation.
When thats done the ink runs through the usual testing for viscocity, opacity, and other rheological traits. Except, as printers, we pick up on things that they miss. Adding puff to a white is a well known bandaid to make up for weak raw materials for instance.

Good info as usual Tony.  The amount of inks we've used the last year and the fact that so many of them are almost identical in body and opacity makes it easy to believe it's being made from the exact same materials.  I'm sure we'd be very surpised with all of the secrets of the ink industry.

[GaryG]

They won't admit it but most (pls) ink companies buy their raw materials from a very large ink company which will remain nameless. Also not discussed in availabity of said raw materials and their consistencies and occaisionally lack thereof. Which (also not talked about) can result in re-formulation.
When thats done the ink runs through the usual testing for viscocity, opacity, and other rheological traits. Except, as printers, we pick up on things that they miss. Adding puff to a white is a well known bandaid to make up for weak raw materials for instance.

Good info as usual Tony.  The amount of inks we've used the last year and the fact that so many of them are almost identical in body and opacity makes it easy to believe it's being made from the exact same materials.  I'm sure we'd be very surpised with all of the secrets of the ink industry.

I's say exact same materials and "EXACT same methods and controls" every time. That's where I  think the major 3-4 ink
companies are ahead of others. Especially an ISO certified company. I wonder other than the majors, how many are certified.

[IntegrityShirts]

Colin, knowing you ink history, you can also field this question. Why do batches differ, if ingredients remain the same? Back when I used 158 exclusively on the manual, we'd get varying buckets here and there.  Do you think it was the environment the ink was stored in prior to printing? Do the base ingredients vary from the supplier? Are they tested in some way for purity before making ink? Honestly, if the technology isn't changing, and formulas are solid, then I'd point the finger at the base ingredient supplier.

It's all just chemistry, right? I want a Breaking Bad Walter White - White!

[inkman996]

I wonder if how they process the raw materials males a difference.