Wow, Screen Tape Costs!!!

[alan802]

When we do go DTS, I know I'll be as giddy as the day the RPM showed up.  But I can't let my "screen print weiner" control my thought process and I have to do what's best for the long-term interests of the shop.  3.3 year ROI doesn't get me that excited, but there is a pulse down there.

A little birdie told me there was a new DTS coming out at a nice price point of 18K, capable of doing 15 screens an hour.  Now we've got some blood flow down there.

[Gilligan]

I imagine, having seen Alan's process first hand, that two color jobs require no micros as well and would be set up nearly as fast.  Add to that if their are repeats then films are faster on those jobs than dts as he has mentioned.

Like you say, it's all about systems. If dts helped you improve that much, that's awesome.  But recognize that you could have improved on previous systems and seen nearly the same sort of gains.  I imagine, head to head with the same jobs, Alan and you would practically be neck and neck.  Now give Alan 50k to spend on what he wanted (second press probably) and he would be crushing it.  This is how Tony crushes it, no one can doubt his procedures.

So you can buy a second auto, hire staff to run it, and deal with increased screen production/seps/scheduling/etc for 50k?  I mean even 2 new employees paid piss poor would cost you most of if not all of that 50k budget PER YEAR just to run this new press.  I guess he could find a 5k beat up all air Jav.  Can Alan's screen room produce enough additional screens to keep those guys busy on this second auto, would he have the sales to fill a second Auto and keep those guys busy as well as his current staff, or would he do the same work 2x as fast now and send everyone home at noon?   How many employees are at Tony's shop.  I assume Tony has more employees than 2 full time guys and a part time guy.  So apples to oranges in Tony and Alan's shop I would guess. 

I know he's your hero and I am not doubting for a second his processes he's done great and his shop is a inspiration for all us small guys.  But I think the pipe dream of just throw a second auto in there and it solves all is way out there.  It requires a bit more than just a auto investment and likely requires added labor costs, which the labor costs alone would cost more in 1 year than a DTS costs total which and be spread out if desired.

You haven't been paying attention.

You don't try to run both presses at the same time.  You stage everything.  Unless I missed something, this is part of what Tony does.  Your print guys float from press to press knocking down jobs while someone else goes behind them tearing down and setting up jobs.  You don't need all that additional staff then.  If it's a short job and the next one isn't setup yet then they can take a bathroom break or pitch in and get the job setup even faster.

No matter what you are turning out way more pcs per shift than you were with just adding in a DTS that can MAYBE save you some time, but not really if it's a repeat order (again, like Tony's model and to some degree Alan's).

[GraphicDisorder]

I imagine, having seen Alan's process first hand, that two color jobs require no micros as well and would be set up nearly as fast.  Add to that if their are repeats then films are faster on those jobs than dts as he has mentioned.

Like you say, it's all about systems. If dts helped you improve that much, that's awesome.  But recognize that you could have improved on previous systems and seen nearly the same sort of gains.  I imagine, head to head with the same jobs, Alan and you would practically be neck and neck.  Now give Alan 50k to spend on what he wanted (second press probably) and he would be crushing it.  This is how Tony crushes it, no one can doubt his procedures.

So you can buy a second auto, hire staff to run it, and deal with increased screen production/seps/scheduling/etc for 50k?  I mean even 2 new employees paid piss poor would cost you most of if not all of that 50k budget PER YEAR just to run this new press.  I guess he could find a 5k beat up all air Jav.  Can Alan's screen room produce enough additional screens to keep those guys busy on this second auto, would he have the sales to fill a second Auto and keep those guys busy as well as his current staff, or would he do the same work 2x as fast now and send everyone home at noon?   How many employees are at Tony's shop.  I assume Tony has more employees than 2 full time guys and a part time guy.  So apples to oranges in Tony and Alan's shop I would guess. 

I know he's your hero and I am not doubting for a second his processes he's done great and his shop is a inspiration for all us small guys.  But I think the pipe dream of just throw a second auto in there and it solves all is way out there.  It requires a bit more than just a auto investment and likely requires added labor costs, which the labor costs alone would cost more in 1 year than a DTS costs total which and be spread out if desired.

You haven't been paying attention.

You don't try to run both presses at the same time.  You stage everything.  Unless I missed something, this is part of what Tony does.  Your print guys float from press to press knocking down jobs while someone else goes behind them tearing down and setting up jobs.  You don't need all that additional staff then.  If it's a short job and the next one isn't setup yet then they can take a bathroom break or pitch in and get the job setup even faster.

No matter what you are turning out way more pcs per shift than you were with just adding in a DTS that can MAYBE save you some time, but not really if it's a repeat order (again, like Tony's model and to some degree Alan's).

Paying fine attention are you because even in your 1 press running, and 1 being setup/broke down.... Alan only has 3 employees right? So.....who's this someone else that would be tearing down/setting up the other press while the other one is being run by those 3 people?  He's gonna have to hire at least a part timer to handle that.  What does that cost per year?  Keep in mind that will also mean jobs start happening faster thus either everyone goes home early or you do more work.  More work means more screens, can his screen staff handle more?  Or will they need more help?  What's that cost?  It's not as simple as you said "50k second press".  There are labor costs in there some where no matter if you run it 1 at a time staging the other or if you run them both at the same time.  Plus do we really think Alan would only buy a 50k press?

Tony has almost 30 people in his production.  Do you think its easier to find someone to break down a 2nd press at Tony's shop, or Alans?

[Gilligan]

I thought we were talking about sam's shop?  He's got a guy just cranking out screens on the dts right?  Has to be some ass time for someone some where.

 When is your shop making money, when the machines are running or when the jobs are being setup?

[alan802]

If we bought a second auto it would definitely be run by the same crew running the other one, with the addition of one full time employee instead of 2 or 3 and I'll pick up any slack if there is any until we can manage to do all the other stuff that comes along with more work.  Then as business picked up to need two autos spinning at the same time we'd adjust it to fit that need.  I think a shop doing our volume in no shape or form needs two autos, but if you bought a used one at a good price and while one auto was printing and the second auto was being setup with the next job, it could work for a shop our size.  I am of the belief that I don't want a second auto until we have to have it and was thinking DTS would be done before the second auto.  I think I can make both scenarios work well, but DTS seems like the more simple route along with keeping payroll the same.  The second auto would have a better ROI if the jobs were there to support it but with adding DTS instead, you can better manage any normal increase or even decrease in production.  It would be terrible to buy a second auto because of a hot new customer only to have them realize they can get it done much cheaper somewhere else and there goes the money for the second auto.  If you only needed a 25% increase in production capacity a DTS makes more sense.  If you need 100%, then obviously a second shift, longer shift, or second auto/more employees are your options.

I've been looking and planning for our growth and I do not want to add a second auto until our current one is running at 16 hours a day, 6 days a week.  I'm sure we'll crack before that happens and get one before we add a second shift, but according to the math from very smart dudes, a second auto should be bought once the first one is printing at 70% capacity for 160 hours a week.  Those look like crazy numbers to me but I trust those who gave them to me.  There is a formula that makes sense and personally for my sanity I'd add the auto before we got to that point.  But to make up for the additional employees and to make sure both autos are running at a sufficient level for optimum profits that 70%/160 hours looks pretty good.

I love trying to figure this type of stuff out, and I don't mind giving full disclosure since we're all friends here for the most part, but a bigger auto and DTS is what I will do when the time comes.  Sell the RPM, get a new 12 or 14 color auto that is freaking fast, Ferrari fast, then pair a new DTS with it and then we're doing 1.5-1.8 mil/yr with one auto with one more full time employee, perhaps 2.

And I got a quote for some screen tape today and also told our old supplier that I'd found a much cheaper option.  They are going to get back with me tomorrow, but I'll have calls screened heavily because I'm not playing that game on freaking screen tape.  If we're dealing with a new auto or something like that, then I'll play, but not for tape.

[Gilligan]

   I just find the time you've spent on worrying about 50k purchase AMAZING ...

And I'm sure this reminds a lot of us of a time when you refused to pick up a phone to call Gary Fox about some discharge samples... Which btw, would have likely saved you all that headache that took you months (not constantly, I know) to work out.

You hate the phone and guys like Alan and I love this industry and love to crunch numbers.

I've spent way too much time building overly complicated excel sheets... Just because it was fun and gratifying.

[GraphicDisorder]

I thought we were talking about sam's shop?  He's got a guy just cranking out screens on the dts right?  Has to be some ass time for someone some where.

 When is your shop making money, when the machines are running or when the jobs are being setup?

I know what you really want to do is just insult Sam, there is plenty of time for that. 

You made a reference to Alan's shop and a second 50k auto and how that makes sense.  Much like several calling BS on Sam (which I somewhat agree with at least at some level), I reply to you and call BS that 50k is all it would take due to needing a least SOME more labor.  Now your back to talking about Sam's shop?   

I don't fully believe much of anything Sam say's mostly because he's really excited and likely embellishing some.  But that doesn't change that fact that he's made DTS work for him....  I think its fair to present the question that could some of you be underestimating the value of DTS and your just ignoring it over basic ROI math?  I mean you have to admit, that if Sam can make it work who's apparently half the size of Alan or Inkman that maybe it should be worth considering that maybe ROI isn't telling the full story. 

[Sbrem]

I can buy the exposure time going down because you're not exposing through glass and film, but as mentioned, for most small-medium sized shops that's not a bottleneck unless they are using crappy light sources, and it's hands-off time. I posted about how a $500 Nuarc flip-top can be modified to have exposure time to rival, or beat the new LED units, nobody seemed to care. My 3K Nuarc Fliptop smokes my 8K Olec and wall frame, but it doesn't matter to us as the worker can be doing countless other things in the 60-120 seconds an exposure takes. I still might by a used 6K fliptop that will accommodate a 23 - 31" screen as I see them go for under $1000 often, and sell the Olec 8K and wall frame for a profit.

I'm still not sure how a press set-up is faster than a when using good FPU system, care to eloborate? Did you have a good FPU system before the DTS?

I guess I just find it too easy to circumvent an expensive piece of equipment with some cheaper things and good systems.

I for one will make a point of stopping in if I get down that way, beers and lunch are on me.

Just times the Nuarc Flip-top, 45 seconds exposure including pulling vacuum on a 156 non-S mesh with Autotype 8000 with Diazo. Murukami Autosol HV with a half-load of Diazo would cut 15-20 seconds off of that.

I would recommend checking out the MHM FPU; it's what sold me completely on our Synchro press; put screen in the holder, 3 seconds, put on film and tape, maybe 10 seconds, take of the holder and put in the vacuum frame. All around, if you setup is right, and you zero out your heads, you can pretty much drop the screens in and add ink, squeegee and floodbar and go... I believe most FPU systems are designed to speed it all up. We got ours with the press, at half price if we bought the press which we did.


Steve

[GraphicDisorder]

   I just find the time you've spent on worrying about 50k purchase AMAZING ...

And I'm sure this reminds a lot of us of a time when you refused to pick up a phone to call Gary Fox about some discharge samples... Which btw, would have likely saved you all that headache that took you months (not constantly, I know) to work out.

I bet we don't have 30 minutes total in trying discharge.  Just because it took us months to find free time doesn't mean anything and calling the dude on the phone wouldn't' have sped up the rate at which I got around to it. 

You hate the phone and guys like Alan and I love this industry and love to crunch numbers.

I like numbers, love numbers even.  I just don't let math drive my business to the degree some do.  If I have it wrong I am sure it will come up at some point...right?

[Sbrem]

Ink

having a dts takes out the human factor for lining up film  also film has a thickness which can mess with lining up. 

also has anyone figured out the cost of space to file all the film say over the course of 30 yrs?  or how about the time to file and retrieve each film and the cost to reprint film if needed. 

I know a guy down in Rhode Island that has an entire floor of just film.  what does that cost to have ( taxes, heating, rent, ect?)  also now that it is so big how much time does it take to retrieve and refile?  those are some big aisles.

just a thought.

sam

Well, we have 20 years worth of film that maybe takes up 40 square feet, out of 8000. Once a year we go through a list of the previous years jobs to throw away birthday parties, bar-mitzvahs and any other one timers. We still keep the digital files, but that takes no room. And I'm pretty sure film storage costs are figured in as overhead anyway in a large place storing as much as a whole floor (sq. ft?). Before we opened our shop back in '90 (part time at night), I worked for someone else from '75 to "93. I had all films (all pre-digital) and paper art stored in about the same amount of space in some custom made cabinets to hold very large file folders.

Steve

[GraphicDisorder]

I am of the belief that I don't want a second auto until we have to have it and was thinking DTS would be done before the second auto.  I think I can make both scenarios work well, but DTS seems like the more simple route along with keeping payroll the same.  The second auto would have a better ROI if the jobs were there to support it but with adding DTS instead, you can better manage any normal increase or even decrease in production.

Exactly my thoughts.    IMO it's a lot easier to fuss over ROI or not on 50k than it is on 100-150K press.

[Gilligan]

I thought we were talking about sam's shop?  He's got a guy just cranking out screens on the dts right?  Has to be some ass time for someone some where.

 When is your shop making money, when the machines are running or when the jobs are being setup?

I know what you really want to do is just insult Sam, there is plenty of time for that. 

You made a reference to Alan's shop and a second 50k auto and how that makes sense.  Much like several calling BS on Sam (which I somewhat agree with at least at some level), I reply to you and call BS that 50k is all it would take due to needing a least SOME more labor.  Now your back to talking about Sam's shop?   

I don't fully believe much of anything Sam say's mostly because he's really excited and likely embellishing some.  But that doesn't change that fact that he's made DTS work for him....  I think its fair to present the question that could some of you be underestimating the value of DTS and your just ignoring it over basic ROI math?  I mean you have to admit, that if Sam can make it work who's apparently half the size of Alan or Inkman that maybe it should be worth considering that maybe ROI isn't telling the full story.

No, Sam's shop is the point of topic BECAUSE it is Sam that is giving the 11 month ROI, it is because Sam is running an entry level press that states 550/pcs hour.  These are some of the reasons a 2nd auto or at least a replacement auto might have been better money spent.   Tony doesn't run all of his auto's constantly, but he has his printers printing constantly.

As far as the problem with the ROI and you saying that "If Sam's shop can do it..." I think the issue has been addressed.

I think it all comes down to how good your FPU, film filing and other systems are. If you have a good FPU and other systems, you probably won't see much improvement from getting a DTS. I certainly haven't seen a solid explanation of where all the ROI money is going to come from posted anywhere yet.

Printing film is "hands-off" time, and on repeat jobs you only print film once. Pulling film from a good filing system has to be faster than printing DTS everytime. Taping up screens on a good system like Alan's is faster than any DTS screens I've seen.

A good FPU system has plenty good enough registration.
A good FPU has only 2 tiny marks that need to be taped up or blocked out
A clean shop doesn't have significant pinhole issues.

All of the things that can make a DTS an expensive and low-profit venture for most of us small to medium shops are systems, or can be had for a tiny fraction of what a DTS costs.

If you are having significant set-up times, you don't have a good FPU system or aren't using it correctly.
If you are having pinhole problems, you don't have a clean shop or have employees following the systems
If it takes you a long time to find old films or if they are in poor condition you have a bad film filing system or have employees not following good systems.

A few will tell (belittle) us over and over how great a DTS is, and how good the ROI is for a medium sized shop, but never offer any actual facts. There are plenty of reasonable people here who would love to hear the reasoning and would accept supported facts, there just haven't been many presented.

Some are happy with their DTS. Great, and you certainly don't have to explain yourselves here, but if you do, be prepared to back it up is all I guess. My 60" automatic squeegee sharpener is an undefendable purchase I recently made, I didn't even really have room for it yet, but yet there it sits.  ROI, never probably. Happiness factor is through the roof though. I justify it to myself because I've had several other equipment purchases which complete ROI was achieved in the first production run on them.

You admit (or maybe it was Shelly) that you are severely lacking in this department and there is a lot of time wasted here (that's not a stab, so please don't feel the need to defend yourself, I'm sure our prepress is in worse shape).  But in your case, ABSOLUTELY would you see an ROI more like Sam's.  But most shops that size have or should have tackled the prepress department and got it fine tuned as much as possible.  For some guys (like us), we can afford to waste a bit of time in this department because we aren't up to our eyeballs in work.  But for us, now is the time to start addressing those things.  I'd rather tune up a current system to get every bit I can reasonably get out of it before I drop 50k on a problem that is a training/systems issue.  A consultant would come in for a fraction of that and vastly fix more than just that.

[GraphicDisorder]

No, Sam's shop is the point of topic BECAUSE it is Sam that is giving the 11 month ROI, it is because Sam is running an entry level press that states 550/pcs hour.  These are some of the reasons a 2nd auto or at least a replacement auto might have been better money spent.   Tony doesn't run all of his auto's constantly, but he has his printers printing constantly.

I think Sam's posts are safe to divide by X to get real numbers.  I've always been smart enough to pick up on that and you guys certainly are as well.   

You admit (or maybe it was Shelly) that you are severely lacking in this department and there is a lot of time wasted here (that's not a stab, so please don't feel the need to defend yourself, I'm sure our prepress is in worse shape).  But in your case, ABSOLUTELY would you see an ROI more like Sam's.  But most shops that size have or should have tackled the prepress department and got it fine tuned as much as possible.  For some guys (like us), we can afford to waste a bit of time in this department because we aren't up to our eyeballs in work.  But for us, now is the time to start addressing those things.  I'd rather tune up a current system to get every bit I can reasonably get out of it before I drop 50k on a problem that is a training/systems issue.  A consultant would come in for a fraction of that and vastly fix more than just that.

 

You quoted someone else but referred to us.  Our pre-press isn't terrible, but film output/seps/burning kills a day a week for us due to OTHER reasons.  Shelly also digitizes the weeks embroidery jobs that day, she seps that day, film output that day, orders goods, and so on.  Which clearly at times runs into the next day or doing one digitizing file this day or that day or day of.  James burns, tapes, pin holes, and so on.  So I wouldn't say its the processes fault as much as it is just too much to do for 2 people for our volume so we struggle there.  But we don't struggle at press, we dont have set up troubles at all really.  We just need more hands.  Probably hire again in Jan.  It's our next largest problem is Shelly spread too thin.  DTS is on our list, I think another set of hands is first and larger press/dryer.  That way Shelly can help with the business more and just help print as needed.  Our artist used to help print but he's got 5-6 days of work every week.  I have 5-6 days of selling every week and still often leave email at the end of each day which is sad.  We are growing though, so ill take it.

[alan802]

Ink

having a dts takes out the human factor for lining up film  also film has a thickness which can mess with lining up. 

also has anyone figured out the cost of space to file all the film say over the course of 30 yrs?  or how about the time to file and retrieve each film and the cost to reprint film if needed. 

I know a guy down in Rhode Island that has an entire floor of just film.  what does that cost to have ( taxes, heating, rent, ect?)  also now that it is so big how much time does it take to retrieve and refile?  those are some big aisles.

just a thought.

sam

Well, we have 20 years worth of film that maybe takes up 40 square feet, out of 8000. Once a year we go through a list of the previous years jobs to throw away birthday parties, bar-mitzvahs and any other one timers. We still keep the digital files, but that takes no room. And I'm pretty sure film storage costs are figured in as overhead anyway in a large place storing as much as a whole floor (sq. ft?). Before we opened our shop back in '90 (part time at night), I worked for someone else from '75 to "93. I had all films (all pre-digital) and paper art stored in about the same amount of space in some custom made cabinets to hold very large file folders.

Steve

If someone wants to fill up 10,000 sq ft with film then that's their problem, and it's a big problem that I couldn't imagine a sane person having.  We have 7 years worth of film taking up two vertical Hon 4/drawer cabinets, so about 4 sq foot in the engraving room and the more current film is hanging on the wall in the art room and I spent $100 on that hanging file system.  In no way is keeping film as cheap as keeping a digital file, but let's not act like we're cataloging screens with images in them for future use.  Retrieving the film is almost as easy as finding it on a hard drive.  You have the design #, walk over to the wall and you find it within 5-10 seconds.  Filing it is equally easy and we do run into problems with the dislexic person filing the film but it's rare.  We do like Steve and go through the film every once in a while and cull the dated film or things we know we won't print again.  Recently we've started putting all the dated film in a shared folder with all the other dated film and it takes up a small sanmar box.

[Gilligan]

You quoted someone else but referred to us.

Only to say that you should be able to see that if your systems aren't tuned for what you have then changing the system to something completely different that doesn't require you to fix problems will mean you can see numbers better than your average shop that hasn't neglected certain systems.