Pierre aka Blue Moon's press experience?

[screenprintguy]

Hey Peirre, hope all is well with you guys! Is it true that on the MHM, you "never" have to level your pallets, that the nature of those press's design lends to perfectly, permanent level pallets? Or is there still an adjustment to be made. I'm just curious as I've had several off the board discussions with folks about constant pallet leveling, and print head leveling. Thanks in advance for your input.

Mike

PS any of the other guys with extensive experience on the MHM's, please weigh in as well.

[alan802]

The press would need to be manufactured with such precision from the ground all the way up.  Seems almost impossible to me hence all the other manufacturers having adjustments on the pallets for a reason.  Maybe MHM has a way of paralleling them during the manufacturing process but it would have to be a very solid piece to not move at all after millions of prints.  I'd love to know how or if that's the case with MHM machines.  Pallets get out of whack, but more often when you use the pallets to free wheel the carousel around and when you print with lots of pressure (waterbased and DC shops). 

[tonypep]

It's pretty much true. I can't remember where I saw the entire carousel being machined with the pallets on. Either way you can dance on those puppies with confidence

[ScreenFoo]

I would think it has something to do with the single pivoting anchor on the squeegee.  I remember a thread about using a half squeegee for pockets, and how it wasn't possible on an MHM.

Assuming your head linear is on, that's that, right?

[screenprintguy]

Like I said, I've had several chats about it with folks, and I can say, that MHM, and Gavin from Hirsch use this as one of their hot selling points. Also recently watched a vid sent over by Ryan at Ryonet, claiming the exact same selling point for the Roque presses. I figured asking folks who have actually ran 100's of thousands of prints over the years. Pallet leveling, and head re-levling is a pain in the ass, but I just can't seem to wrap my head around how any machine over time doesn't require it. If it's used as a "main" selling point, you would figure it would be valid. I'm interested to see how this thread goes, as I'm sure there are others who have been told this, or heard this, read it, and want to see how legit "in the field" the claim is.

[blue moon]

for the most part, they don't really need to be messed with. What causes the issues is crashing the press (don't ask!).
We relevel everything about once a year and the heads that have not been abused are usually within 15-20/1000th of an inch. After going around (which only takes about an hour for all the heads and is pretty easy to do) everything is within 5/1000th. That means left to right, front to back level of the platens and distance from the printhead both front and back.

pierre

[alan802]

for the most part, they don't really need to be messed with. What causes the issues is crashing the press (don't ask!).
We relevel everything about once a year and the heads that have not been abused are usually within 15-20/1000th of an inch. After going around (which only takes about an hour for all the heads and is pretty easy to do) everything is within 5/1000th. That means left to right, front to back level of the platens and distance from the printhead both front and back.

pierre

Is it a four point leveling system or 3, or something different entirely?

[ebscreen]

I've moved our two S-Types three times each, and I am constantly amazed that when it's re-assemble time,
we're almost always dead on parallel. Don't ask me how it works, I don't know, it just does.

There's two points for the screen hangers, two bolts each end of the screen, but stacked horizontally
if that makes sense. The pallets have little riser bars under them if you need to raise one side front or
back.

We do re-level once a year or so. And the floating squeegee chingadero makes it tougher then on basically
any other press. You can't float a floodbar over the pallet to see where you're at.

We use a metal frame welded with the MHM pins and 4 dial indicators towards the corners. 4 bar clamps on the corners
of the holders to the head extrusions make for precise adjustment and holding position while tightening
the hangers. Clear as mud?

[blue moon]

it's a four point system for the platens, then there are two points for the quick adjustment of the printhead to platten distance (front and back. these can be done in about 5 min each with an adjustment bar that comes with the press).

Essentially, if the platens are level, you just loosen the off contact adjustment points on the front and back of the platen, slide in the bar and lock it in place with the bar used as stop. This levels the screen holders to the platens.

so here are the adjustment points from bottom to top.
1. a support rod that has a threaded counter screws to move the platen up and down
2. 4 points on the platen support arm to fine tune the height and level of the platen (front/back/left/right)
3. tilt adjustment for the print arm (to make it level with the platen)
4. screen holders adjustment (located on the off contact knobs) to move them up and down (independently) to make sure the screen is parallel to the platen (this works even if the head is not parallel with the platen, it's just that the squeegee/floodbar assembly would be getting closer or going further away from the print as it travels.

when we tune the press, we get all of this to be within 5/1000th of an inch. It could be done to a 1/1000th if I felt like playing with it, but I just don't think that's necessary.

pierre

[alan802]

I shoot for 5/1000 as well.  Like you said, I could get it tighter but at what cost in time.  I'm not sure I totally follow how it's done but that's ok.

[blue moon]

I shoot for 5/1000 as well.  Like you said, I could get it tighter but at what cost in time.  I'm not sure I totally follow how it's done but that's ok.

I'll try to find some time to take pictures . . .

pierre

[screenprintguy]

So basically, and MHM sales person telling someone, "if you buy our press, you never have to worry about re-leveling your pallets as they never need to be leveled", is complete BS. I'm sure they might not need it as much as others, but ya gotta figure anything with that much movement and wear has to be re-adjusted here and there at times. I remember when we bought our machine, over the phone, at our shop a few times, and at a trade show, the MHM guys were adamant on how their machines NEVER, need pallet leveling, that the machines are built perfectly level at the factor. I want to almost say there is a video or two floating around out there where someone at the factory says the same thing. Not trying to stir anything up, just have it out there to a couple people I know that are very serious about buying new machines who feel they don't need to speak with shop owners running the presses, that one of their main reasons for buying an MHM is never having to re-level pallets, or parallel the press over time. Misinformation costs shops tons later on or causes them to go under. I know MHM is a good choice for anyone as they are pretty awesome machines, the attraction to me has always been the flip up print heads, and full control at each head, but I'm also a huge fan of the newer machines M&R is putting out ie: the C3, and for more sophisticated machines like up in this realm the service. Not trying to sway my buddy, just let him see for himself how things work in the real day today shop environment. Thanks to all you guys putting your honest input, if there is anything else good, or bad, please continue to add as it's informative for anyone out there trying to make decisions.

[ebscreen]

Take a look at the 3000 and 4000 machines. Each pallet arm is like a foot wide and deep.
Doubt those would ever need leveling.

[screenprintguy]

I know this is off the MHM subject, but here again, someone saying a certain press never needs pallet leveling, but is that true in the real world? would be cool if it is true, but is it.

sRoque Screen Printing Press FAQ - Lock and Roq Garment Platen System

[blue moon]

So basically, and MHM sales person telling someone, "if you buy our press, you never have to worry about re-leveling your pallets as they never need to be leveled", is complete BS. I'm sure they might not need it as much as others, but ya gotta figure anything with that much movement and wear has to be re-adjusted here and there at times. I remember when we bought our machine, over the phone, at our shop a few times, and at a trade show, the MHM guys were adamant on how their machines NEVER, need pallet leveling, that the machines are built perfectly level at the factor. I want to almost say there is a video or two floating around out there where someone at the factory says the same thing. Not trying to stir anything up, just have it out there to a couple people I know that are very serious about buying new machines who feel they don't need to speak with shop owners running the presses, that one of their main reasons for buying an MHM is never having to re-level pallets, or parallel the press over time. Misinformation costs shops tons later on or causes them to go under. I know MHM is a good choice for anyone as they are pretty awesome machines, the attraction to me has always been the flip up print heads, and full control at each head, but I'm also a huge fan of the newer machines M&R is putting out ie: the C3, and for more sophisticated machines like up in this realm the service. Not trying to sway my buddy, just let him see for himself how things work in the real day today shop environment. Thanks to all you guys putting your honest input, if there is anything else good, or bad, please continue to add as it's informative for anyone out there trying to make decisions.

i can see where under ideal circumstances you would not have to adjust the platens, but that could most likely be said of all presses these days. We all know that circumstances are never ideal and things happen (ask me about indexing the press with the screen between the heads. mangled up some pretty thick metal and obviously threw the arm out of level). Printing platens with fresh glue will likely pull the off contact down a little and even potentially move it sideways if it happens while the press is in auto mode. Under normal circumstances, these things are not done and press should be fine, but we all know what knuckleheads we can be at a time.  .  . After such things, press needs adjusting.

I have been told by the press tech not to mess with the leveling adjustments as he thought it should not be necessary.

It is my opinion that the main benefit of the MHM is the ease of setup. While trilock works very well, having floating micros (they are not locked down and can be adjusted mid run by just turning the knobs) and the good FPU is a better setup. All together, I think the changeovers are somewhat faster than other presses. CHIII is starting to kick MHM's behind with some of the features and I have to admit to being jealous at a time.

My suggestion would be to have your buddy go and see the presses in action. This will speak volumes.

pierre