Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison
Jumping to my point, Im in. In a sep guy, but most all sep guys are artist as well, so I always have something to fall back on. Even on the art end, that's changing as well. Your right. Change is going to happen. I'm accustom to change. Your either with it or agin it, I'm with it. Still tho, I say to you this. Math is indeed match. You can answer the 2+2 math question. My serious question is this. Do (you) know how to do math or do you know how to do good seps? The reason I ask, is because there are a portion of the business of seps that match an handle all on its own. The other portion is the % if jobs that relies on the ever moving math number. (Eg). 2+2 is 4 on the surface, but your 2 shifts to 2.3, 3.75, etc, that 2 stays a 2 only in a confined equation. In printing, the 2 represents many changing things. A 6 color job in math only works one way. So while your math stays correct, your fixed program using math stays the same. So your challenge is not just the math that you can handle, but to handle the separation variables like a human. Can you give it AI or artificial intelligence to "adjust to the confines of a particular situation, Do "you" know how to separate at a professional level?That's not a dis. It's just a helpful question. I have read that you do color seps, but how much is your experience at accommodating all scenarios? For example, I know nothing about programming but pretty good at seps, yet I'm not perfect. Discharge for example is fairly to for me to accomadate my process to. The procedure changes (per job). So I find it very challenging for you to be able to create something to accommodate or "change" based on the job. Now I know you can put in a feature for every scenario you can come up with (within what you know about). That has its limits for everyone. So in the end, you are relying on the customer to punch in all if the parameters for your program to do its job, that is great, providing they know what to look for as well.My thoughts are, that while you may create an awesome or near perfect program, it relies on other people to tell it what to do or to put in the right math questions do that it can answer.Just some thoughts.
colors in a 3D color space, where colors are linearly mixed between x colors, where x can be 1 or more, is over defined. What that means in mathelonian is that you can mix many colors in multiple ways perfectly accurately
Have to be honest here... And having to come to understand even far more in the last several weeks. The human eye or thinking is irrelevant in the digital color space the math is the math there is no way around that.
I mean common we all believed these seps could only be done with this special process for so many years when in reality we were all wrong all along..
I even loaded a copy of CorelDRAW 8 a 16 year old version of the program on my system and did perfect HSB seps in less than 5 minutes.
Color adjustments and art tweaking are NOT color separating. Obviously file/art preparation work is often required as with any form of printing but preping is not separating.
Don't forget art clean up/improvements. HSB nor DDsol does that. So that is one thing that is a benefit of using any pro separator. probably 60% of the jobs I sep already, need some clean up.
QuoteHave to be honest here... And having to come to understand even far more in the last several weeks. The human eye or thinking is irrelevant in the digital color space the math is the math there is no way around that.True. agree as I stated with DDsol above. Still tho, even in HSB, let alone all of the other programs and procedures, Math is Math, but printing is printing and getting it to print...is different than getting it to look right on screen and breaking the colors down to spot colors "on screen".No matter "how" you get a sep completed, you have to make it work. I know your new HSB script is a nice way to break out colors, as is a few other methods, but like choosing HSB over other methods, (for specific needs), on things that I do, HSB can be the BEST option thus far, (for those specific things). That use is very limited. I would not use it for all things. For many, is can be a great option to obtain color breakouts. Like DDsol has defined, THAT is really what should be created. Something that is more intuitive to where you can go in and make calculated adjustments or pre-sep adjustments and define how each area should be treated. not just color tweaking, but area tweaking. THIS would sell like hotcakes for the endless amount of incoming beginners and even the more seasoned. The Pro's may purchase deals to use the product on everything they do, to go through DDsols new program faster and more accurately...and pay him a discounted rate for being a MASS user. So they can still make a living at doing seps or add that into tho other things they offer like jpg to vector etc.QuoteI mean common we all believed these seps could only be done with this special process for so many years when in reality we were all wrong all along..Not wrong. What you offer, is just another vehicle. Another means to an end result. Sure, we can agree that it does a good job. Lets even say that it's THE way to convert colors. ok. Still, you have to convert this HSB color space...to various PMS color seps and you STILL print out the colors. You do that either thru Corel or Photoshop and you're still using PMS colors to simulate the photo. This is called Simulated or "fake" process. Call it Simulated phot printing. I don't mins "waht" you name it" but it's still simulating an image thru blending pms colors with one another to create other colors. It's a simulated procedure or process.QuoteI even loaded a copy of CorelDRAW 8 a 16 year old version of the program on my system and did perfect HSB seps in less than 5 minutes. People convert art to 4 color process in 1 min. How fast you do it, (is a selling point) to those that don't know or do'nt see the forest thru the trees.For the many who are not going to be shooting for awards, THIS is your market. They are the ones that will be gleaming at the idea of getting easy usable great seps (in 5 minutes). For those like Rick Roth, Mark Coudrey, Andy Anderson, etc. speed is not as important as how well it can be used on press accurately for the most efficient manor. How they get there is not important as accuracy and efficacy. For the average shop, you have a vast target audience.lets take the well known 4 color process conversion method. it's truley printed in CMYK when using this conversion method. 80% of the work out there on colored garments is not cmyk, but many have used the CMYK conversion like they might a HSB conversion. Much of what a non printer thinks is a 4 color process image or photo is converted to what the industry has loosely called sim process. We all have converted art to CMYK (as one of our options to break down colors) since we started screen printing colors on shirts. Many have even used the RGB or even LAB channels to break down color.The HSB has come to light by you as being another method and presents cleaner colors. That I do not disagree with. Here is the trouble I see with it. 1, it doesn't do (what DDsol) is talking about doing in his program). To boot, This "cleaner color" still does not translate a perfect print accurately when used on press due to the variables (to name just one), is the printing ink used that are in theory, (color contaminated). Even the WHITE is contaminated with tints of blue in some screen printing inks. This should tell you that using an HSB method is not going to present pure color (on press) and it's not that big of a improvement over using a RGB. LAB, or a CMYK conversion methods. Sure, it's cleaner. I agree with you on that whole heartedly. Ok. Back then to the same issues on press as the other methods present as well. The print variables. If we could take a monitor and place it on every tee shirt, then, THEN we would ahve great reason to use HSB. To enhance that statement, Some artist still ONLY create ALL of their art in channels, never having the art ever touch a mode more than MULTI CHANNEL. No RGB, no CMYK, no LAB and no HSB other than a screen shot or merge to RGB so they can put it on a mock up garment.Channel art and separating from those channels... is THE BEST way to achieve accurate color prints on press when comparing to the original art created. So to "say" that HSB is THE WAY and that using channels is an inaccurate method is just not true. HSB is "another way" to break color down. we don't even have HSB ink colors so the fact that your converting to HSB color space is kind of irrelevant isn't it? I mean, you do still end up assigning pms colors and printing out of Corel as a single color place that blends with other colors in that design...to simulate the look of the original... but like converting to CMYK, (it's a fast method) and better color space than using a CMYK conversion. The technique of pulling colors out using all of the other options...is just another process procedure.When Mark Coudrey came out with HI FI printing, CMYK + (the added specially formulated inks) It looked brighter and cleaner when done right. Thats the kicker, the shop still needs to do everything right and with that type of printing, all parameters needed to be stellar. I liked it. It's popularity faded tho, I think due to needing to buy/pay a premium price for these specially formulated inks. (I'm guessing). Mark was on more of the right track pertaining to color space on print. You need ot look into developing a cost effective ink that works with your HSB process to be able to sell it as something more unique than it really is. Sure, you will make boo coo $ on your marketing techniques, selling it as "the way". But I think that if DDsol gets his going fast, buying a Simpleseps HSB converter script is going to be as interestingly beneficial as buying any other automated sep program.QuoteColor adjustments and art tweaking are NOT color separating. Obviously file/art preparation work is often required as with any form of printing but preping is not separating.Don't forget art clean up/improvements. HSB nor DDsol does that. So that is one thing that is a benefit of using any pro separator. probably 60% of the jobs I sep already, need some clean up.
1. I am not talking about a script or any other program I have clearly shown how this works manually.
2. The channels in PS are mathematically incorrect we have clearly demonstrated that and if you need more evidence I can provide that also.
3. Select color range and many PS tools are also mathematically incorrect I can prove that too.
Therefore in the wrong color space with the wrong tools you need hours to manually recreate the art into separations.
When you are in the correct color space using the correct math and tools hours become minutes perhaps even seconds.
When Mark Coudrey came out with HI FI printing, CMYK + (the added specially formulated inks) It looked brighter and cleaner when done right. Thats the kicker, the shop still needs to do everything right and with that type of printing, all parameters needed to be stellar.
Let us please try avoid complicating this topic.... Mojo is a myth it does exist in the digital color space it is pure math. In this space opinions are meaningless.Let us not try to confuse people with misleading words to imply that other methods are not valid, such as " the wrong way to go, mathematically incorrect, Myths, Mojo. You can find many tuts on separating sim process on the net that show their process that they use for free.What you don't see promoted is the old school way of building the art completely in channels and printing from those seps. How fast is that sep process? Well, by the time you're done with the art, you're done with the seps. So that is pretty fast and more accurate than any other method.Quote1. I am not talking about a script or any other program I have clearly shown how this works manually. I may stand corrected. I assumed SimpleSeps was an automated product (now incorporating HBS) to separate colors from Corel. Yes, you've shown how it works. It works like any other procedure to break down colors manually, just using a lesser used technique due to taking advantage of the HSB color mode. It's a different angle of the same, but I do agree, HSB is cleaner color. Then we take it to print and we are back to the same sim process. Thats the only thing about the whole HSB being THE WAY. Thats my take on it. I'm sure you disagree. Now, is it a good product.. this SimpleSeps using HSB? Sure. I don't doubt that at all. Is it even better than any of the others? Some of them, I'm sure. Some of those others have better, more intuitive abilities but how much better it really is compared to the others is pretty much just a guess since I don't have all of them.Quote2. The channels in PS are mathematically incorrect we have clearly demonstrated that and if you need more evidence I can provide that also. I don't think you have. None that I've seen. I've watched your vids and didn't see where it's mathematically incorrect. I saw where some curves were shown in very extreme cases that would not be used in an actual procedure of separating or adjusting as a tool to signify how inaccurate it is (while you chime in to say, "so using channels is the wrong way to go". It wasn't convincing to me at all. Perhaps you can elaborate on that to show more clearly why channel seps are incorrect. In HSBSimpleseps seps, a 5% of a tone is the same as a 5 % tint on a channel separation. I see you make adjustments for don't gain. So does Channels. You can do that in may methods of the process. Quote3. Select color range and many PS tools are also mathematically incorrect I can prove that too. For the Color range tool tho, I bet you can prove that it's not a good or best choice of making selections. I don't recommend it either.QuoteTherefore in the wrong color space with the wrong tools you need hours to manually recreate the art into separations. Not so. The time that it takes is all relative to the skill of the person and the job at hand. Some 6 color jobs take 15-30 min. others and most, take more, how much more is different for each job.QuoteWhen you are in the correct color space using the correct math and tools hours become minutes perhaps even seconds.That might be true. Similar to how many convert to RGB or CMYK to use elements of those channels for separation, it can be very fast. Tools are tools, no matter where they come from.Many people have been using the same tools you have shown in your vids for break down color. It's not a method that I prefer to use, but others have been and for many of them, it's all they know. For them, they complete a sep in 5, 10, 30 minutes as well. They just didn't do it in HSB sim process.