Drag and Drop Browser Seps

[DDSol]

Announcement:

I'm not sure that I'll be supporting more than 10-12 colors. There's a snag: WebGL will not allow me to create overly complex sep engines. More than 10-12 colors results in the WebGL system choking due to too many constants (numbers). I could separate the engine into 2 parts for a solution and render seps 1-8 in one pass, 9-16 in a second, and so forth, all the way up to 121 seps or more. Does anyone have a press that big?

So, I don't think it's worth it. The seps are so good, you can get away with 4 colors oftentimes. You don't need more than 8, ever, but you can use an extra gray or whatever for definition and maybe an orange or a skintone as well. In any case, if you add too many colors, it just stops working completely. I can catch the error and prevent it from mucking things up, but unfortunately, I can't send bigger engines. Splitting the engines into multiple stages is very painful and would require me to redo the whole thing.

Another option might be to pack multiple numbers together in one. This would reduce accuracy significantly though, and would also increase rendering time a lot. Again, not a good option.

Besides the limitations of the graphics in browsers, however, there's no limit to how many inks you could use.

Anyway, just wanted to give you aheads up. Too many inks=stop working.

[inkman996]

You are correct it was just the browser displaying the image. Figured that out finally.

Went to windows through Fusion and tried it with Firefox but same result. I for some reason had to force Firefox to enable "force open GL"

Pretty easy to do if anyone has the same problem with Firefox, just open the config file scroll to "force open Gl" and toggle to "true"

[DDSol]

Cool. Glad it's working. I hope it can be made to work without Fusion as well. I think Chrome will probably work fine and maybe FF as well.

[blue moon]

DDsol,

I apologize in advance for raining on your parade, but I thought this needs to be said so anybody reading the thread does not get the wrong idea.

There are limitations to separating art with a computer/using math. It will (if programed correctly) accurately break down and even potentially mix the colors, but there is more to separating then just breaking down the colors. For an average print, computer generated seps can potentially be OK. I have seen some that were perfectly fine, but they were nowhere near what we get with the manual separations. And this is after time was spent to adjust the computer generated seps (at least an half an hour to an hour).

there are limitations to what the software can do on it's own and art comes in so many different types that it is impossible to accommodate all the possibilities. I keep bringing up the fade from yellow to red and how that should be printed with solid yellow on the bottom and gradual fade of red on top (with red starting at the lowest percentage halftone that the particular shop can handle). This avoids the sharp transition lines and shirt or underbase peeking through. This is just one of about hundred things that separators take into account when working on the art. At this point in time, computers are unable to do that and even if the algorithms were made to do it, the application of those would never be as precise as what a person can do, due exactly to the different circumstances having the same formula applied (for example, transition from yellow to maroon would work different from transition from yellow to warm red). Another example is the compensation for the surrounding color. 485c on medium gray looks downright orange. To keep the overall feel of the image correct, that color might have to be printed with a less yellowish red. If computer separates with the 485 and it is used to blend other colors in the artwork (for example any oranges that might be present), than that 485 shade can not be altered without altering the orange too. There are many cases like this where human is the only machine that will  produce correct results. Again, if close is close enough, computer might do the trick, but this is not the case for our customers.

I am not stating anything new here, this was said by the foremost industry experts and our experience backs it up (and since you probably have no idea who we are and where I am coming from, I'll throw out that we have a shelf full of awards for the work we do including a couple of Golden Images).

This is not to belittle the program you are making, it will be an excellent tool for many, and some might even get push button results they can use, but it will not eliminate the manual separations. The program that would be capable of of producing human level seps would be incredibly complicated, many hundreds if thousands of times more complex than the chess software that relies on calculation power and very limited set of rules.

And just to be fair, there are also limitations to what is being done by hand. Those seps are not perfect either as the human error is introduced too. Computers can run the same operation time and time again with the same results, we humans tend to forget a step here and there. . .

So to recap, this can turn into a very valuable tool, but it will not replace the manual separations completely. It might help them produce faster and even eliminate teh need for them in some instances, but knowledgeable separator will run circles around the computer in most cases. The quality of the final outcome will dictate the rout that can be taken.

pierre

[DDSol]

Wow. Sorry, but you do not know what you're talking about.

There are limitations to separating art with a computer/using math.

What would those limitations be? I mean, have you made any programs lately? They done a pretty bang up job for the paper printing industry. But, maybe Screen Printing falls in the  Mystic Voodoo category.

It will (if programed correctly) accurately break down and even potentially mix the colors, but there is more to separating then just breaking down the colors. For an average print, computer generated seps can potentially be OK. I have seen some that were perfectly fine, but they were nowhere near what we get with the manual separations. And this is after time was spent to adjust the computer generated seps (at least an half an hour to an hour).

Those were not seps made with my thing. If they were, you'd be fine. No half hour needed. I know you don't believe it. But you can go see and see it.

there are limitations to what the software can do on it's own and art comes in so many different types that it is impossible to accommodate all the possibilities.

Yeah.. no, it's not impossible. Your computer screen displays 16.78 million colors. That seems impossible. So many different types... But it isn't impossible. It displays that many colors. It's hard to believe, yet true nonetheless. Your PC can add up 3 to 15 billion numbers in 1 second. Your computer can handle "so many" things. The more, the better, actually. The more possibilities, the better it is to use a program rather than a person. So, it's kinda the opposite...

I keep bringing up the fade from yellow to red and how that should be printed with solid yellow on the bottom and gradual fade of red on top (with red starting at the lowest percentage halftone that the particular shop can handle). This avoids the sharp transition lines and shirt or underbase peeking through.

Well, did you give it a go? Did you see the yellow under the red or the red under the yellow? "solid", more or less?

This is just one of about hundred things that separators take into account when working on the art. At this point in time, computers are unable to do that

It's not true, and never was. Computers were able to do it from the very first computer that took up 3 rooms. Nobody bothered to program the thing right. Now I changed that.

and even if the algorithms were made to do it, the application of those would never be as precise as what a person can do

That's true, it's not near as precise. It's in a league of it's own: It has perfect precision, something a person could never match.

... due exactly to the different circumstances having the same formula applied (for example, transition from yellow to maroon would work different from transition from yellow to warm red).

Yes or no... I mean, yes it works different, after all, they're different colors, but no, my thing would do a cool job in either case.

Another example is the compensation for the surrounding color.

Yes, could you please change the colors to what it is you want to print before you slide it into my sep system please? I assume that if what you shove in looks crappy, you don't mind it coming out crappy. Do you artsy stuff before you push it into my sepper, because that's a machine and is not at all artistic. The art should have been done and over with by the time it came to get it sepped.

485c on medium gray looks downright orange. To keep the overall feel of the image correct, that color might have to be printed with a less yellowish red. If computer separates with the 485 and it is used to blend other colors in the artwork (for example any oranges that might be present), than that 485 shade can not be altered without altering the orange too.

So, alter it before you shove it in my seps.

There are many cases like this where human is the only machine that will  produce correct results. Again, if close is close enough, computer might do the trick, but this is not the case for our customers.

If perfect is close enough, you can use my stuff. It's not a computer that does the seps. It's the software. The computer just runs the software. The software is the real "machine" here.

I am not stating anything new here, this was said by the foremost industry experts and our experience backs it up (and since you probably have no idea who we are and where I am coming from, I'll throw out that we have a shelf full of awards for the work we do including a couple of Golden Images).

Foremost industry experts are people and they are also wrong. Besides, they never laid an eye on my stuff. How could they have anything to say about it? And for the record, I am stating something new here. What couldn't be done on Monday can now be done, it's Wednesday after all. I built it. It's exists now. It's a strange and brave new world. And a bit scary, I admit...

This is not to belittle the program you are making, it will be an excellent tool for many, and some might even get push button results they can use, but it will not eliminate the manual separations.

It won't, for sure, eliminate manual seps. Some people won't want to pay for it, some people will be too stubborn to even look at it, some will refuse to acknowledge it exists because they have intertwined the fact they do seps by hand with their very identity. It's who they are now, and without it, they have no identity. It's scary stuff. Maybe denial is indeed better.

The program that would be capable of of producing human level seps would be incredibly complicated, many hundreds if thousands of times more complex than the chess software that relies on calculation power and very limited set of rules.

Uh. How would you know any of this? Did you work on Deep Thought? Do you even play chess? Humans are so much better at playing chess than computers that it took a huge amount of computer processing (and many, many lines of code as well as a database of moves) to beat the top chess players.

I couldn't write that software. But what I can do, and have done, is write a sepper that seps like nothing (and no one) you've known. And if something is off, I can actually fix it. I can make an orange-on-gray detector if need be and fix that issue you just addressed. But I don't believe that that's an actual issue... so I won't do that one. Maybe some other ones, yes!

So, because you do not know what is possible, you should likely refrain from uttering things as fact. Use words like "I don't think..." and "I don't believe...". At least it would be true.

And just to be fair, there are also limitations to what is being done by hand. Those seps are not perfect either as the human error is introduced too. Computers can run the same operation time and time again with the same results, we humans tend to forget a step here and there. . .

So to recap, this can turn into a very valuable tool, but it will not replace the manual separations completely. It might help them produce faster and even eliminate teh need for them in some instances, but knowledgeable separator will run circles around the computer in most cases. The quality of the final outcome will dictate the rout that can be taken.

Btw, the number of rules for seps is actually very, very small. It's silly looking at it from where I sit. Just like Tom & Jeff's HSB seps. It's just an insight. It's pretty simple stuff. Of course, the math is hard, but in your head you can think of what it means and it actually makes sense. That's how you sep as well: It makes sense. You just do what makes sense. It's not art. You get art, and then sep it. The sep is not the art, the art is the art.


So, to recap: This is already a very valuable tool. It's worth a lot of money. It will replace manual seps for anyone that is not afraid and has a few bucks to spend on it. Unless they can't find it or my server is down. You know... stuff!

I program. That's what I do. I am not a sepper. I am not an artist. I do not, nor have I ever, printed a single shirt. I make algorithms. I do math. I've worked as a graphics guy in a few shops, and know what happens... for sure. I have sepped a stack of jobs... yes, but I am a programmer. I do not use PS scripts, plugins, macros. I process pixels myself.

You shouldn't say it's not possible, because you don't know if that is so. You do not program. You don't do math beyond adding expenses and profits. Why the hell would you? No reason for you to do that. You do awesome seps. That thing you said with the yellow and red... that requires a thought or 2. Some insight. What you didn't seem to realize is that I have that same insight as well. And I can program. Add that together and voila: a sepper that does an awesome job.

So, it can be done, it has been done. Go and see for yourself!

Ps. Don't worry about raining on my parade. I don't care if people want to make me feel bad, say it's bogus, say I'm stupid... whatever. I know better and that's all I need.

[DannyGruninger]

Pretty much what Pierre said. I will go out on a limb and say there will never be a sep "program"/auto punch that can match hand pulled seps unless the original art is designed around the EXACT colors the program is pulling. I'm attaching a design that our artist just finished up a few weeks back, this is a great example of artwork that this sep program(or any for that matter) cannot accurately pull the PMS colors we are needing to print. The sep program might pull a cyan blue when in fact we need it to pull a pms 320 teal color. The sep program tries to make the pms 320 with a cyan, white, and green color all mixing halftones together when the overall print would look MUCH better printing a straight pms 320 color, not 3-4 colors blending together. The bottom line is unless the auto seps programs can pull the exact colors we are wanting to print on press, then it's still the same ole auto sep program imo and really isn't better then much else. If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want PMS 109, PMS 320, PMS 7502, PMS 216, etc then the program would pull seps based on the colors we tell it, then it would be special. Until that happens.....all I can say is meh....


I would be 100% game to have ddsol or tom do a sep like they are talking about on the attached artwork using their method.... Then we will have our house artist do a set of manual seps and compare the difference. I just don't see the programs pulling the exact colors that we need to print. In theory you should be able to print the main colors of the color wheel to achieve all other colors but on press and in real life shops, that is impossible to achieve..... When dealing with difference opacity inks, different shirt colors, the way colors blend on press, etc the real world doesn't lend itself to auto seps, but again this is just my opinion. All the math in the world will not solve the problems we run into on press, bottom line.

[DDSol]

Sorry guys. As we speak scientists are working on math to solve everything, and I mean everything. Look for "Theory of everything". I can damn well solve this simple thing.

And don't say never. There already is. However, my poor sep program cannot possibly be expected to read you mind. You'll have to tell it you want 320 or 319 or 1782 or whatever it is you think is "the cool color du jour". You get what you want. My program doesn't care either way. It will use any color you throw at it, and as many as you want (except webgl won't allow more than 10 or 12, which you'll never need anyway).

If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want

You can. It's already there. Actually. You just can't delete the auto-suggest colors yet.

It's not done... except for the engine, which is done and extremely good.

I sepped your image. I didn't change anything. 5 colors it came up with. (You should know it tries to use a few inks as it can get away with. I will add the "High end" target later on. In the mean time, you'll have to add your own PMS colors. You can.)

Remember, this thing is now just a test. But it will be a product. It isn't. But it will be. It can separate, yes, but it can't output the seps. So, no I can't make films out of your cool picture. Just on-screen previews for now... sorry. BUT, you can zoom in SO FAR that you can see what dot goes where, and you can see ink opacities, because you can see one dot through another. So, that's pretty close to proof, I'd say. Give it a shot instead of giving me opinions about stuff you didn't look at!

C'mon peeps! You don't have to install ANYthing! Just click this link. Try it! Try it! Just go and try it! See how cool it is! Really... you really gonna say it don't work when you didn't even peek? My my... then there's not anything I can say, not even using 1000000 words!

Btw, you'll need the image as a PNG (never save as JPG! It's lossy!)

But attachment size is too small... It won't upload. Grmbl.

[Prosperi-Tees]

Pretty much what Pierre said. I will go out on a limb and say there will never be a sep "program"/auto punch that can match hand pulled seps unless the original art is designed around the EXACT colors the program is pulling. I'm attaching a design that our artist just finished up a few weeks back, this is a great example of artwork that this sep program(or any for that matter) cannot accurately pull the PMS colors we are needing to print. The sep program might pull a cyan blue when in fact we need it to pull a pms 320 teal color. The sep program tries to make the pms 320 with a cyan, white, and green color all mixing halftones together when the overall print would look MUCH better printing a straight pms 320 color, not 3-4 colors blending together. The bottom line is unless the auto seps programs can pull the exact colors we are wanting to print on press, then it's still the same ole auto sep program imo and really isn't better then much else. If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want PMS 109, PMS 320, PMS 7502, PMS 216, etc then the program would pull seps based on the colors we tell it, then it would be special. Until that happens.....all I can say is meh....


I would be 100% game to have ddsol or tom do a sep like they are talking about on the attached artwork using their method.... Then we will have our house artist do a set of manual seps and compare the difference. I just don't see the programs pulling the exact colors that we need to print. In theory you should be able to print the main colors of the color wheel to achieve all other colors but on press and in real life shops, that is impossible to achieve..... When dealing with difference opacity inks, different shirt colors, the way colors blend on press, etc the real world doesn't lend itself to auto seps, but again this is just my opinion. All the math in the world will not solve the problems we run into on press, bottom line.

Who am I to judge, but the 'I" in Littleton gets kinda lost in shadows there.

[DannyGruninger]

Sorry guys. As we speak scientists are working on math to solve everything, and I mean everything. Look for "Theory of everything". I can damn well solve this simple thing.

And don't say never. There already is. However, my poor sep program cannot possibly be expected to read you mind. You'll have to tell it you want 320 or 319 or 1782 or whatever it is you think is "the cool color du jour". You get what you want. My program doesn't care either way. It will use any color you throw at it, and as many as you want (except webgl won't allow more than 10 or 12, which you'll never need anyway).

If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want

You can. It's already there. Actually. You just can't delete the auto-suggest colors yet.

It's not done... except for the engine, which is done and extremely good.

I sepped your image. I didn't change anything. 5 colors it came up with. (You should know it tries to use a few inks as it can get away with. I will add the "High end" target later on. In the mean time, you'll have to add your own PMS colors. You can.)

Remember, this thing is now just a test. But it will be a product. It isn't. But it will be. It can separate, yes, but it can't output the seps. So, no I can't make films out of your cool picture. Just on-screen previews for now... sorry. BUT, you can zoom in SO FAR that you can see what dot goes where, and you can see ink opacities, because you can see one dot through another. So, that's pretty close to proof, I'd say. Give it a shot instead of giving me opinions about stuff you didn't look at!

C'mon peeps! You don't have to install ANYthing! Just click this link. Try it! Try it! Just go and try it! See how cool it is! Really... you really gonna say it don't work when you didn't even peek? My my... then there's not anything I can say, not even using 1000000 words!

Btw, you'll need the image as a PNG (never save as JPG! It's lossy!)

But attachment size is too small... It won't upload. Grmbl.

I think what your doing is great, but honestly if you think that design I posted can be printed on a black shirt with only 5 colors I strongly suggest you visit an actual screen printing facility and have them attempt to pull that off with 5 colors. Bottom line is it will look like crap, and I will stand behind that. It seems like there's an obvious dis connect between how you can physically separate a job on computer and how that actually translates to a printed shirt. Comparing an industry that prints on paper vs printing on fabric is like oranges to apples which seems to be one of the arguments here. Those guys print everything on white paper, not colored shirts. What works for that will not work for what we are trying to do so the math involved is nowhere near the same.

If I could actually get your "drag and drop" tool to work from my computer I might have different feelings about it, but going back to what Pierre said I think it's a long shot trying to have a program that can account for shirt colors, the way inks blend, etc. We have to remember what we are doing(printing on fabric) is an art form, not a set of mathematical calculations. Unless your program can account for the thousands of adjustments we have come to learn by ACTUALLY PRINTING ON A PRESS then I still think it's hard to beat a set of manual seps because the person whos doing those seps should have press experience and the know how to account for what happens in an actual shop on the press.....


For instance, does your sep program account for the screens that are first in the print order having more dot gain then the screens last in the print order? Those screens will experience more dot gain then the screens that are last in the print order?

[inkman996]

Different ink from different manus
RFU/modified inks
Squeegee variables (duro/angle/speed/pressure)
Screen variables
Tension
Thread diameter
Oem
TPI
Substrate variables, far to many to list
He'll just the tempature can,make inks work differently
Print order, flash placements
Stepped on screens


Like Danny has been saying above is just a small list of the dozens of issues we have to deal with day to day printing. I am far from a seperator but I have slung ink for more than enough years where I can see what is good and what is bad on screen. We printers know how certain inks play with other inks, what half tone % will work best depending on a lot of the above variables. And the greatest thing about it everyone,one of those things I listed above are dealt with differently per shop basis.

I just can't fathom,how any auto program can account for everything for every shop out there. I am not putting down your software just questioning your arrogance when,you always say your program will be perfect everytime. If you worked I our shoes for a while then you might have an idea of what I am saying. Just down fall into the trap that as long as it looks good on your monitor then it will reproduce exactly like that on textiles.

Comparing what we do to the paper guys is wrong, those guys print on the most ideal substrate imaginable and they also have the pleasure of using inks that are way more printer friendly than our crummy ole plastisols that have viscositys ranging from watery to down right cement.

[blue moon]

few thoughts, again apologizing if it looks like I am trying to start something, as I am not, but my opinions are pretty firm and I do believe I know something about what is going on.

I mean, have you made any programs lately? They done a pretty bang up job for the paper printing industry. But, maybe Screen Printing falls in the  Mystic Voodoo category.

first before we get too deep into this, No I did not work on the Deep Thought, but like many here I started programing long time ago. Before the 80's were over I was writing code in assembler. 'went to top 5 rated school for computer engineering where I wrote more code and designed microprocessors. By the time I was done having fun and going through school I've programed in machine code (yes the one with 1's and 0's), even a level below it where I had to program the microcode for the actual processor design, all the way up through various C's and visual languages to Fortran and Basic. I have friends that are working on the algorithms for Apple and similar high end work and often talk to them about it and have even made few suggestions on how to solve some issues. I've been programing on and off for 30 years now. I assure you, I have more than clue 1 when it comes to understanding what is going there.

So I am pretty sure that, YES I do know what I am talking about!

and yes, screenprinting on shirts is not the same as printing on paper. It is Mystic Voodoo due to 600 parameters that have to be controlled. Due to the sheer volume of variables, what works in one shop does not necessarily work in another (see my signature). Paper is paper for the most part and they just about all the time print on white paper only. We have underbases, different color and composition substrates and so on. Are we in part a red headed stepchild and do not humidity control our garmetnts before printing unlike the paper industry that has it's moisture content checked? Yes, it is in part our own fault, but there is a limit to what produces a reasonable ROI in this industry.


I agree with you, that red on gray and red on yellow are rules that can be designed and implemented to compare the art and modify it to produce the results that are wanted. But that was my whole point, the number of rules would be very large and many of them are very obscure. Writing code that would contain most of those rules would be a daunting proposition. Without reading what I said earlier, if indeed I said that it could not be done, you are right, it is possible, but only in theory. The reality is that when the software is written and if it is in use long enough, more and more rules could be incorporated and it would progressively get better and better. It is my opinion, as somebody who has taken printing, programing and math to very high levels, that we are very long ways from having push button seps that create high end product. Again, please note, I say high end! I think technologically we are able to get usable seps (of varying degrees of usability) already. It would not be a feat to improve slightly on what is going on right now with other programs.

I will close this with a very simple example. Do you have the maximum ink deposit programed into the seps engine? Do you even know what it is? Does it change from underbased to non underbased print? what about the areas with halftone underbase? This is a detail that every good manual separator will know and abide by to produce usable results. Is this in the program already? Do you even have that information? Do you know how is it impacted by the different colors that are being blended? And even if you do have all of that in the system already, there is a ton of similar stuff that would have to find it's way into the software. Finding majority of it is not easy, coding for might be even harder.

pierre

[JBLUE]

Just ran the sep on Danny's art. It is a very cool program and I do not in any way want to discount the hard work that has gone into the back end. Again what you have done is cool but it is no where near the point to be able to print the graphic I just sepped with it there. What Danny said above it totally true. Now if you can make it to where it would sep it properly you would be winning the screen print lottery. Again it is a very cool program and you did a great job. It just is not ready to tackle this image.

[DDSol]

• You say with 5 colors it'll look like crap, but you've never printed a single shirt sepped using my thingy. How would you know it'll look like crap? Just because you were never able to sep this to 5 colors doesn't mean my sepper can't.
• You assume that 5 colors is the limit. You can use up to 12. Actually, the limit isn't me, it's WebGL and your GPU. It just can't handle all that data the engine needs.

I think it's a long shot trying to have a program that can account for shirt colors, the way inks blend, etc

Yes, it's a long shot.. I mean, long haul. I worked at this for 3 years. I know what I'm talking about.

For instance, does your sep program account for the screens that are first in the print order having more dot gain then the screens last in the print order

I don't think so, but hell, what do I know. If this is really true, then I'll spend the 15 minutes it takes to add that. I do dot gain anyway. I can make it run on a function. It's a non issue. It is certainly not a deal breaker.

@inkman...
I wasn't comparing paper and shirts. I'm just saying that they solved their issues. ICC profiles are complex beasts as well, you know. But then done figured it out!

And when I send my art to Jack the WebSepper, he will not know your RFU/modified inks, squeegee, screen, tension, thread, oem, TPI, substrate smell, color of your dog, size of your fridge or any of those important things EITHER.

But it's perfectly fine to send your art to ProSepManJack.com amd have him do seps for you.

Hmmm.... seems like an unfair thing to do.

THAT SAID, I'm perfectly happy to add sliders for
Different ink from different manus (OH WAIT it's already in there)
RFU/modified inks
Squeegee variables (duro/angle/speed/pressure)
Screen variables (coming soon!)
Tension (please, you better put the yension the way I tell you to. I don't recommend using silk underwear as screens)
Thread diameter
Oem (Whatever that's supposed to do... as if you actually take this crap into account)
TPI
Substrate variables, far to many to list (I'll add far to many and then you can scroll)
Tempature
Print order, flash placements (ACTUALLY, I have this)
Stepped on screens (Checkbox)

Ps, don't step on screens. Should I add a checkbox for "screen which was find in a burned-down shop with a squirrel's nest in it"?

None if this stiff is a deal breaker either!
If you can do it, what makes you think my program can't?

And I wanted to say this very important thing here. If you don't believe a word I have to say, and if you are unwilling or unable to try it, then why the hell should I care? It's not like you're going to use it. You won't even try it. It's not like I lose a customer. It's not like you have a problem not using it. Nobody loses if I don't care.

And so with you guys wasting enormous amounts of DEVELOPMENT time on having me convince you of what can plainly be seen by anyone with the courage to look... I'm not making my deadlines... and it's my fault.

So I have to now let you guys go. You can just hear from the printer down the street how well it works and think to yourselves "What a bunch of morons, how they fell for that. They really think they can sep in 5 minutes. If it takes me, the pro, 2 days to do a high end sep, it is impossible for them to do it in 5 minutes."

Right you are. Spend your 2 eons on a sep. Your neighbors won't mind. I won't either.

But shut up about "it can't be done", especially if you haven't even looked at what's SO easy to look at. It's a click away (unless you have an old browser, but you need to work on that Anyway).

You do not know what you're talking about. I spent my time making this. You do not know how to make ANY software. You CANNOT know if this can or can't be done, or even if it's easy or hard. You CANNOT know if a program can take into account "variables".

Btw, variables are one of the main ingredients in programs. Programs eat variables for breakfast. If we wouldn't use variables, programs wouldn't work. Programs are not PS macros.

And I understand:

I just can't fathom,how any auto program can account for everything for every shop out there

Because YOU can't fathom it, you think it therefore most be unfathomable. Well, I have fathomed the crap out of it. It has been thoroughly fathomed. Leave the fathoming to those with a high degree of fathomability.

And you can't put down my software, since you don't know anything about it. How could you put down what you don't know? Hell, you don't even know what it's called.

AND @ pierre

So what you wrote microcode. If that's even true. Because I can't for the life of me figure out why you'd think screen sepping is so mich harder than chess. It damn well isn't. Do you know anything about combinatorial optimization? Didn't think so. But the number of combinations is really low in screen printing compared to chess. Besides, most of these variables have no interplay, but they have their own influence on the print, not each other. It's a continuous function, often linear. Big deal! I can do linear, quadratic, or whatever. Log. Exp. 3 letter words. Easy to type. It's simple. And, as I said, which sepper actually takes this into account? I mean, I KNOW about REBURNING screens. Yay. AMAZING. TRIAL and ERROR. That's awesome. Well, I can make a program for that as well. It spits out many variations one after another, in between asking "was it too red when you output, burned, aligned and printed?" etc.

That's just dumb talk peeps. There's really no point. I'm an SO wasting my time on you guys.

And sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. I don't care if you made a scroller in ASM or 1's and 0's/

As far as the "red on gray and red on yellow" rules... It's the same stuff dude. It's one rule. One thing. One only. Not 7. Not 100. Just a single one. Red, yellow, gray, they're params.

And YES the max ink deposit is programmed into the seps engine. Is there an issue with that? There will be a slider. "Soft hand (less ink)" to "accurate color (more ink)". Easy to use, easy to understand. It WILL change from underbased to non-underbased but I HAVE NO UNDERBASE yet, which you'd know if you would have looked, which you didn't.

So, I'm going to take everything that a person with a strong opinion wants HIS way and make it into a slider: Ink opacity, screen mesh count, rosette or flamenco and angles, underbase density. Underbase color only or also blacks, gradient underbase based on lightness or only on alpha, use shirt color instead of an ink, etc etc. Checkboxes. Sliders. Buttons. Easy. (lot of work, but straight-forward. Like building a house: Lots of sweat, but beam by beam, board by board, simple crap).

And this thing improves hugely on the other ones. Try it and see and stop having an opinion when you haven't seen it. You look dumb, even if you turn out to be right! (Which, unfortunately, you won't)

And you can't sep for what you don't know either... sorry.

@JBLUE:

It doesn't work yet. It's a test. You can't delete the colors you dislike. You can add any PMS color you like. It does a freakin' awesome job. Totally awesome, and it's not done yet. I don't know WHAT ABOUT IT would make you say it's not near the point to be able to print. I doubt you know. What exactly is wrong with it? If you tell me, I'll fix it RIGHT UP.

[DannyGruninger]

DDsol, can you post some photos of ACTUAL PRINTED SHIRTS using your separations with no adjustments made once the seps were completed? I'm curious to see what type of quality your seps are actually achieving on a fabric shirt. Seeing how confident you are in your separations I would just like to see printed shirts. Thanks

[JBLUE]

@JBLUE:

It doesn't work yet. It's a test. You can't delete the colors you dislike. You can add any PMS color you like. It does a freakin' awesome job. Totally awesome, and it's not done yet. I don't know WHAT ABOUT IT would make you say it's not near the point to be able to print. I doubt you know. What exactly is wrong with it? If you tell me, I'll fix it RIGHT UP.

First of all I know a lot more than you so lets just get that out of the way. Second I think your program is cool. The things you are looking to fix are not just mathematical calculations. Do you know what the viscosity of the ink is going to be after 100 impressions running two flashes? I bet that is no. Please dont take what I am saying as an insult to your program. I think you are onto something and it has peaked my interest. However if you have no press press experience you cannot answer the questions we are throwing at you. You do not understand the countless variables that we experience. Can you account for dot gain from a dull squeegee verses someone using a sharp one? Can you account for the color shift. That is where a good manual sep guy can out process your calculations. Every shop prints a little differently. So a straight out of the box sep is not going to work across the board.

Like Danny I would be happy to provide you with a sample to sep and send back. Using your current color count percentage I should be able to do my job in half of the original 8 colors it started with.

What you need to realize is that I am open to your concept but do not let your inexperience cloud your vision. This is not a 5 color job. Just because it is possible on a computer does not make it possible in the real world. You may be able to print a version that loosely represents the art but to truly represent it is more than 5 screens.