M&R Challenger I

[royster13]

A while back I had a chat with a young fellow and his wife (she was stressed) about whether or not payments on an automatic press were a good or bad idea.......Based on how much labour he was paying to keep up on his manual, I thought it was a "no brainer".....I can not remember all the math but as I recall the payments were just under 700.00 a month and he was paying 950.00 to 1,200 a month in casual labour.....Now the automatic press did not completely eliminate the casual labour but with his wife's help, he was able to get more done in 4 days than he had in the past in 6 days (has a life now).....In time his volume will grow and the math will get even better.....This is my mind is "good debt"......

PS....Although we all know that a good manual printer can turn out great work, there is a "perception" that a person with an automatic press is better....You can exploit this "perception" in you marketing....

[californiadreamin]

A while back I had a chat with a young fellow and his wife (she was stressed) about whether or not payments on an automatic press were a good or bad idea.......Based on how much labour he was paying to keep up on his manual, I thought it was a "no brainer".....I can not remember all the math but as I recall the payments were just under 700.00 a month and he was paying 950.00 to 1,200 a month in casual labour.....Now the automatic press did not completely eliminate the casual labour but with his wife's help, he was able to get more done in 4 days than he had in the past in 6 days (has a life now).....In time his volume will grow and the math will get even better.....This is my mind is "good debt"......

PS....Although we all know that a good manual printer can turn out great work, there is a "perception" that a person with an automatic press is better....You can exploit this "perception" in you marketing....

 I hear where you are coming from!
I am a BIG fan of automation. Have been for 30 years. I am a Bigger fan, of looking at the numbers.
I make my living off of automation. I have been on all sides of the wheel, printing, supplying, manufacturing,
 Servicing. I believe going automated, can be the biggest blessings or the down fall of a printer. I believe that
one should add debt of any kind with as much wisdom. I have seen and known of people who have started
with nothing and made millions, and vice versa. There is a "perception" that If I do this, this, and this that
this WILL happen. Not Always! I am as of now in Jacksonville,Fl.  There are say 75 automated machines here.
Only 20% run with satisfactory numbers. The rest can't even fill multiple manual presses to capacity will month
after month sales. Why did they go automated? The biggest answer I hear is that " I thought that if I went
automated" then I would surely get a lot more business. Really! Sometimes that is true. Some even move into
larger space, increasing overhead. Betting on the come. Sometimes the plan works, but most of the time when
it does work, the people just got plain lucky. Still others(a very few) were successful because their plan worked!
Bravo. I also highly recommend that people going from manual to automation first for a period of time, sub
out and grow their business on the machine downtime of other printers who can't fill there automated machine.
IMHO more printers go out of business, because of a lack of "PROFITABLE" sales, then because of not being
able to put out orders. I also hear " I would but, other printers just can't deliver my quality". Really! You must
not be looking very hard. We each have in our mind what "a lot of work is". The answers will vary greatly. It
is more reason why, we should have as much good info from others who have "skin in the game" on our
behalf. On a whole, our industry is shrinking/changing. There is a lot of "Great" opportunity to do really well
and thrive. However, there are no "Givens" anymore. At a low level, any one can increase or double sales. The
larger you get, it however becomes not as easy feeding the beast of growth and keeping your bottom line
healthy.
winston

[Prosperi-Tees]

all good advice. I ultimately have to live with the decision to go auto or not, buy used or new, go into (good debt) or continue to have no debt. Its a tough decision for me as I have a family of 5 that depends on me making good decisions.

[GraphicDisorder]

I would just be careful who you buy from and certainly go see it or use it even before buying.  A lot of these brokers out there aren't on the up and up.  Some good ones out there I am sure. 

[californiadreamin]

I would just be careful who you buy from and certainly go see it or use it even before buying.  A lot of these brokers out there aren't on the up and up.  Some good ones out there I am sure.

Funny! I don't see the poster talking about brokers! A lot of the machines I install are sold
printer to printer. I would also add be very careful of buying machines printer to printer,
the presses are also sometimes misrepresented. And then on the other hand, some of the
startups going into the business, say they are going in because they are tired of being screwed by
screen printers. I have herd that a lot over the years! The cycle continues....
I guess we should just all outsource to Tijuana and really build our businesses. Makes sense.
Most are printing incredible prints on the latest equipment. The trucks go back and forth across the border
everyday. If you guys need names, let me know!
winston

[Prosperi-Tees]

You guys actually are making my decision tougher lol! 

The machine im looking at is thru a broker but he is a well respected broker and even offers a parts warranty upon install.

I think im making my decision tough as well. Nothing has come easy in my life. I dropped out of school in the 7th grade and started working. I think that has developed me into somewhat of a tightwad and making big decisions are even tougher because I like to hold on to things in fear of losing them. I guess I should stop living in fear and take some chances.

[GraphicDisorder]

You guys actually are making my decision tougher lol! 

The machine im looking at is thru a broker but he is a well respected broker and even offers a parts warranty upon install.

I think im making my decision tough as well. Nothing has come easy in my life. I dropped out of school in the 7th grade and started working. I think that has developed me into somewhat of a tightwad and making big decisions are even tougher because I like to hold on to things in fear of losing them. I guess I should stop living in fear and take some chances.

No risk no reward, but don't take any risk without caution or calculation. 

[californiadreamin]

You guys actually are making my decision tougher lol! 

The machine im looking at is thru a broker but he is a well respected broker and even offers a parts warranty upon install.

I think im making my decision tough as well. Nothing has come easy in my life. I dropped out of school in the 7th grade and started working. I think that has developed me into somewhat of a tightwad and making big decisions are even tougher because I like to hold on to things in fear of losing them. I guess I should stop living in fear and take some chances.

No risk no reward, but don't take any risk without caution or calculation.

Great Advice!

[Lizard]

All great advise here.  The thing you have to ask yourself is... Do I want to automate to increase my business or Do I want to automate to make my like easier?  With that answer you will make the right decision.

[Prosperi-Tees]

It would be automate to increase business. I need to make my life harder before I can make it easier. 

[Binkspot]

Something that often is over looked is the "extras" when buying a press or any piece of equipment. This is what will nickel and dime you to death. Need to look at the big picture.

Someone has a budget of $20k and finds a machine for $19k. Sure you found the machine for $1k less, that's great but now you need a $2k compressor, $1k chiller, $500 in pipe and fittings, hose and a filter then another $1k in wire and plugs and maybe a disconnect. You may have to hire an electrican to do the hook up for another $500. Add in the cost of shipping and the lost hours of production while the machine is being set up. Then the cost of the install plus expenses. It all adds up quickly and can easily add anothe $5-$6k to the cost of the press and now well over the $20k budget.

[GraphicDisorder]

Something that often is over looked is the "extras" when buying a press or any piece of equipment. This is what will nickel and dime you to death. Need to look at the big picture.

Someone has a budget of $20k and finds a machine for $19k. Sure you found the machine for $1k less, that's great but now you need a $2k compressor, $1k chiller, $500 in pipe and fittings, hose and a filter then another $1k in wire and plugs and maybe a disconnect. You may have to hire an electrican to do the hook up for another $500. Add in the cost of shipping and the lost hours of production while the machine is being set up. Then the cost of the install plus expenses. It all adds up quickly and can easily add anothe $5-$6k to the cost of the press and now well over the $20k budget.

I agree, we spent right at 10k getting our press and gas dryer installed.  That was in a shop with 400 amp service and the press is in the same corner as the electrical box.  Electrical, Gas Lines, Vent the dryer, lift rental for tall ceiling, etc.   It adds up really fast!

[Homer]

or better yet, you already invested in a NEW compressor, NEW chiller, NEW lines...and you still don't have enough cfm....those old machines take some serious volume, really think about it before you buy it....






my new chiller and tank arrive today

[IntegrityShirts]

or better yet, you already invested in a NEW compressor, NEW chiller, NEW lines...and you still don't have enough cfm....those old machines take some serious volume, really think about it before you buy it....






my new chiller and tank arrive today

Exactly this.  Those older all air presses use A LOT of air.  Minumum 3 phase compressor as no single phase HP motor could spin a pump big enough to keep those beasts happy.

And on Winston's Oval comment.  It takes a SEASONED professional to have the gonads to suggest running a shop full of old ovals in this day and age! 

My advice, and this is what I did, would be to take that cash and put it toward a newer press with a loan to buy the rate down a little or to shorten the term.  Something with AC heads and known reliability here in 2013

Also what I did was gather up the compressor and chiller (and bigger dryer!) BEFORE I bought a press and had it all wired and ready to go so those costs were behind be by the time I pulled the trigger on the press.

[GraphicDisorder]

If its your first auto, I like the idea of it being new.  That's just me.  Not saying you can't make used work for you.  But that's just how I like to do things.  I should be worrying about how to sell orders for it to print, not worrying about how to make it print.

If you knew your way around a older press and such, I would say go for the older one.