Press Question

[ScreenPrinter123]

My uneducated guess is cost with regard to producing a press with a/c heads and an air indexer.  The cost difference to go from air to servo index would seem like nothing compare to going from air to a/c heads due to needing a motor on each head.  That is why I guess you see air presses with one a/c head for underbasing and difficult inks.  If you can afford a/c then it would be foolish not to.  I dont know what that earlier ScreenPrinter123 was thinking!

[ScreenFoo]

The press here is as Alan describes, with a servo drive index and air heads.

I guess I may just be not seeing the amazing benefit to AC heads when I'm used to air, because I'm not running them.   I know on certain jobs if I could get five or ten more inches per second out of an AC head than the air head I'm using, that I could do better work.  But that could be said of many, many things. 

I think the other stigma with air machines is how many are poorly maintained and leaky.  How many people started on a really old beat up air press that wasn't very well maintained?  How many people started on a really old beat up AC press that wasn't very well maintained? 

I know that some people on here have or have used old-school presses with AC heads--what kind of issues did you have to/are you dealing with?

As noted, an issue (here, at least,) is that the cost difference is quite large and used availability is quite small--if AC heads were as cheap as an upgrade to servo index, it would be far beyond a no-brainer to me.

[BorisB]

On the subject of how a press is configured, for example, servo drive and AC print heads, I've never understood why there are so many servo driven and air operated print heads out there.  If I could only have one of those options, AC print heads or servo indexer, I'd choose AC print heads and it's not even close.  Sure it's nice to have a machine indexing smooth and quiet, but when it comes to performing the most important part of what we do, you know, the actual printing part, AC print heads are where it's at.  An air indexer or servo for that matter has nothing to do with the actual squeegee stroke.  If money were holding me back from getting both options on an auto, AC print heads are what's actually important yet you see a ton of servo driven presses with air operated print heads on the used market.  It should be the other way around if people were really concerned about how the machine prints, not how well it indexes.  Just my thoughts on that, anyone agree or disagree?  Or care?

Agreed 200%!

[alan802]

I know AC print heads are about $1500 per head, give or take a few hundred depending on dealer, manufacturer and their generosity at the time, but I really haven't compared pricing between servo drive and air driven indexers.  I was dead set on both options and I know the AC print head option because it's broken down on several quotes from several different manufacturers.  Does anyone know or have a price increase from an air to servo drive?  I'd bet it is around 4-6K.  Just my wild ass guess though, I could be way off.

[Baron265]

I think the servo index was developed to accommodate larger machines. There comes a point where an air cylinder is not practical to drive the index. After you design the mechincal and the programing the question comes up, why not do it on the smaller machines. I think what's available, (all air, servo air and servo ac) is just a matter of the development timeline of carousels in the M&R era.

[Inkworks]

I know AC print heads are about $1500 per head, give or take a few hundred depending on dealer, manufacturer and their generosity at the time, but I really haven't compared pricing between servo drive and air driven indexers.  I was dead set on both options and I know the AC print head option because it's broken down on several quotes from several different manufacturers.  Does anyone know or have a price increase from an air to servo drive?  I'd bet it is around 4-6K.  Just my wild ass guess though, I could be way off.

That was along my thinking too, cheaper to add 1 servo index than 6/8/10/12 AC print heads. I believe I've seen a used machine with AC at head #1 and air everywhere else, which makes sense to me too. It may have been an aftermarket/frankenpress though.

[TCT]

Some presses air index is not even a option. I know that is the case with the S.Roque presses. I would imagine the same with MHM. Alpha 8 for that matter as well. With how they index, I'm not even sure they could be set up to air index. S.Roque's new "entry level" press has servo index and air heads.

It was interesting, when our press was being installed the techinician(from Portugal) was looking at our anatol and said "oh yes, I have seen this type of indexer. We use it on our machines 10 years ago." He wasn't trying to be funny, he was somewhat intrestred in just how the machine(anatol) worked. I got a kick out of it though

I almost wonder(I am guessing here, and could be totally wrong) if air indexing was the first way autos indexed. It would make sense. And since everyone always seems to want a cheaper press, they leave the air indexer as a option to lower the price of the press and make it more appealing. I would guess(again) that most people that want AC heads are not buying their first auto, or if they are, they have done their research. I wouldn't want a nice smooth press with AC heads and then a air indexer that will shake the hell out of the machine.

[3Deep]

Would be nice to have an after market servo kit to installed on a air indexer... I know after market AC heads is way out the question.  TCT I there with on the shaking the hell out of the machine, I'd love for my anatol to run a little smoother, even the table up at times can scare the heck out of ya.

Darryl

[TCT]

even the table up at times can scare the heck out of ya.

Darryl

How is this for being scared with table up, in the first three years we mushroomed out three registration forks! Turns out the press was not set up properly the first time...

It is kinda crazy to stand back and watch the press shake during printing. I do have to say the servo indexer is a crazy difference!

[tonypep]

Some presses air index is not even a option. I know that is the case with the S.Roque presses. I would imagine the same with MHM. Alpha 8 for that matter as well. With how they index, I'm not even sure they could be set up to air index. S.Roque's new "entry level" press has servo index and air heads.

It was interesting, when our press was being installed the techinician(from Portugal) was looking at our anatol and said "oh yes, I have seen this type of indexer. We use it on our machines 10 years ago." He wasn't trying to be funny, he was somewhat intrestred in just how the machine(anatol) worked. I got a kick out of it though

The first autos used either a Geneva drive or hydraulic chain driven index system

I almost wonder(I am guessing here, and could be totally wrong) if air indexing was the first way autos indexed. It would make sense. And since everyone always seems to want a cheaper press, they leave the air indexer as a option to lower the price of the press and make it more appealing. I would guess(again) that most people that want AC heads are not buying their first auto, or if they are, they have done their research. I wouldn't want a nice smooth press with AC heads and then a air indexer that will shake the hell out of the machine.

[ScreenFoo]

Some presses air index is not even a option. I know that is the case with the S.Roque presses. I would imagine the same with MHM. Alpha 8 for that matter as well. With how they index, I'm not even sure they could be set up to air index. S.Roque's new "entry level" press has servo index and air heads.

It was interesting, when our press was being installed the techinician(from Portugal) was looking at our anatol and said "oh yes, I have seen this type of indexer. We use it on our machines 10 years ago." He wasn't trying to be funny, he was somewhat intrestred in just how the machine(anatol) worked. I got a kick out of it though

I almost wonder(I am guessing here, and could be totally wrong) if air indexing was the first way autos indexed. It would make sense. And since everyone always seems to want a cheaper press, they leave the air indexer as a option to lower the price of the press and make it more appealing. I would guess(again) that most people that want AC heads are not buying their first auto, or if they are, they have done their research. I wouldn't want a nice smooth press with AC heads and then a air indexer that will shake the hell out of the machine.

I was hoping one of the old timers or gearheads would chime in, but I thought most of that old M&M/American stuff was mostly servo. 

Another thing I had to mention reading this--from my limited experience, if you properly adjust an air indexer, it works just as well as a servo--just not as fast.
I'm assuming they could be equivalent systems given the same spec--at least to a point.

[Binkspot]

Like ScreenFoo said the press should index and lift smoothly even with an all air press if properly set up and adjusted. As time goes by it may need to be tweaked a little to keep it running smoothly. A rough running press is only causing ware and may present problems down the road. Even our old Javelin and Olympian ran smooth. The only time you should see it index rough is maybe if you took std pallets off and put smaller ones like sleeve pallets and unless the press was running for days with them it would not pay to tinker with the index since the std pallets would be going back on and everything would run smooth again. 

[3Deep]

I would like to listen to a new all air press index and compare mine now, I got a feeling mine needs some service not much but just a touch.  I've seen my friends M&R Sportmans run and those jokers run smooth, nice index, smooth print strokes, but I would be comparing apples to oranges cuz my press is all air.

Darryl

[StuJohnston]

Some presses air index is not even a option. I know that is the case with the S.Roque presses. I would imagine the same with MHM. Alpha 8 for that matter as well. With how they index, I'm not even sure they could be set up to air index. S.Roque's new "entry level" press has servo index and air heads.

It was interesting, when our press was being installed the techinician(from Portugal) was looking at our anatol and said "oh yes, I have seen this type of indexer. We use it on our machines 10 years ago." He wasn't trying to be funny, he was somewhat intrestred in just how the machine(anatol) worked. I got a kick out of it though

I almost wonder(I am guessing here, and could be totally wrong) if air indexing was the first way autos indexed. It would make sense. And since everyone always seems to want a cheaper press, they leave the air indexer as a option to lower the price of the press and make it more appealing. I would guess(again) that most people that want AC heads are not buying their first auto, or if they are, they have done their research. I wouldn't want a nice smooth press with AC heads and then a air indexer that will shake the hell out of the machine.

I was hoping one of the old timers or gearheads would chime in, but I thought most of that old M&M/American stuff was mostly servo. 

Another thing I had to mention reading this--from my limited experience, if you properly adjust an air indexer, it works just as well as a servo--just not as fast.
I'm assuming they could be equivalent systems given the same spec--at least to a point.

If you are sincerely interested, I will take pics of how the American Arrow works geneva and all.Personally, I fell like it works pretty well.

[ScreenFoo]

If you are sincerely interested, I will take pics of how the American Arrow works geneva and all.Personally, I fell like it works pretty well.

I'd love it.  I doubt I would be the only person on here who would be sincerely interested.