Author Topic: Curiosity  (Read 22637 times)

Offline screenxpress

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2013, 10:32:47 PM »
Ummmmm, where can I get one of those?   :P

you wouldn't know what to do with it pops haha...

Well, I know that, but now everyone else does..... Thanks.   ::)
Anything important is never left to the vote of the people. We only get to vote on some man; we never get to vote on what he is to do.  Will Rogers


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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2013, 11:25:05 PM »
To illustrate Pierre's point as to why the high dollar separations programs don't really work and it all comes down to a human being, see the picture below of one of my seps.  Programs can't do this kind of work, only humans can.

Well this a blanket statement coming from someone who has obviously not used all the push button seps systems in the market. The image in this in post could be seped manually in less than 20 minutes in DRAW.. Pull the Brightness.. Pull the hue and then depending on what I want to do I could sep the hue/flesh with the tone curve into several shades of flesh easily. Of course I would rather just select options and click a button but either way it is not difficult. And I am not saying that there are not seps that are difficult but if you have the right color model and the right tools it sure beats the hell out of trying to push color back into place.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 11:33:53 PM by AdvancedArtist »

Offline Rockers

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2013, 12:05:54 AM »

To illustrate Pierre's point as to why the high dollar separations programs don't really work and it all comes down to a human being, see the picture below of one of my seps.  Programs can't do this kind of work, only humans can.


 What if you could virtually instantaneously separate an image like the one you attached into 2 colors, 4 colors or 6 colors with multiple Pantone colors for the flesh if that is what you wanted?
I think the image would look pretty poor separated into 2 colors ;)

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2013, 12:20:24 AM »
3 might be a minimum but you could pull off a fairly decent print with two color in HSB because the hue could be toned down or dialed in with brightness.

Offline abchung

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2013, 12:22:14 AM »
I have been playing with HSB for several weeks on Photoshop. So I don't know any technical art terms because I am not an artist, so please bare with me.

ok.
1. I created a colour wheel with hue increment of 5 or 10 degrees, with different saturation and brightness radially.
2. I extracted out the brightness leaving just the saturation/hue.
 Now this is what baffles me.
If I use the hue/saturation method to extract the colours, it will cover more hue/angles. But if I use colour range it will cover less even though I have it at 200.

I must be doing something wrong.

The hue/saturation method I used is the same as the one listed below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4yKHHODimg

Thanks
Anthony.


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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2013, 01:16:40 AM »
I can bare with you but you are really are in the wrong application to separate HSB for several reasons which you are demonstrating with your difficulties. Color for screen printing is a convoluted mess in PS which is why these PS users are lost in the land of Simulated Process and miss directing an entire industry with the Sim Process Urban Legend.

Just like they told us this can only be done in PhotoShop for the last like 15 years when DRAW could have done it better all along. Filter your information with truth and look at color based on established math and science not PhotoShop user opinions that are not based in truth or any genuine understanding of color.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 01:31:32 AM by AdvancedArtist »

Offline Chadwick

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2013, 04:33:36 AM »
See folks,

there's alot of different tools out there.
They all do the same thing,
but,
they're all different in how they get to the end result.
In methodology alone...quality, for digital, is just fine whichever way you go,

It really is (almost) all good.
The only thing that isn't good about it, is the fact that creative people take sides,
based on a brand.

Don't be f*cked.
.02

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2013, 09:42:15 AM »
When you understand color and you understand your applications then you can make informed decisions about how you want to separate.

Color Space Color Gamuts Color Models and Screen Printing


At the end of the day both Corel and PS can do this but PS makes it more difficult due to some significant issues in PSs color engine.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 09:49:59 AM by AdvancedArtist »

Offline inkman996

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2013, 11:04:59 AM »
My question is why do you have to seem so hostile about this topic and constantly call out ignorance which in my opinion disrespects a lot of people on this site that are professional photoshop seperators who know how to use their software and understand separating for screen printing just as well if not better than you do. There is folks here that have stepped and also printed award winning shirts and I have one of them award winning shirts hanging in my office, no push button sep software or plugin could come close to creating the seps that the artist did for that shirt. The difference between the software no matter the software and a human is that the human understands how ink works on shirts, understands how ink works on bases, understands how ink works through different mesh counts and understands how inks play together in different print orders. Software cannot do that it only knows one thing and thatis how to do what it is told to do on screen.

Not saying your technique cannot do a decent out of the box job, but I would love to see it used in comparison to a human seperator with a non cherry picked graphic.
"No man is an island"

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2013, 11:53:03 AM »
Concerning the video I shared two posts back.. Here is a Quote from Mark Caudrey concerning that video and the science of color from another Industry forum.

Quoting Mark

Normally I tend to stay out of the forums, but occasionally something really interesting comes along and I'll dive in, usually to my regret. I hope not this time.  This is a really nice video and I agree with much of what is being said. HSB has been a really wonderful space to calculate color in, and in fact we have been doing it very, very successfully since 1994.  The most powerful (and expensive) separation program on the market is ICISS. It is entirely HSB based and has been since it was released commercially in 1995. We were instrumental in the design and development of it and it is the basis for NetSeps.com color separations. Well over 50,000 high end seps have been delivered to printers since we started NetSeps online in 1999.

I think there needs to be some clarification about HSB compared to sRGB, Adobe RGB, and all the other color spaces.  The key word here is "color space." There are dozens of color spaces: sRGB, RGB, HSB, HSL, LCH, L*a*b*, XYY, XYZ, YCH, and the list goes on and on. All of them are derived from XYZ which is modeled after what the human eye perceives. To get the values, the CIE uses what is called the Standard Observer. This is comprised of  averaged perceptual visual data response from 2000 healthy people under specific color viewing conditions. All of the other "spaces" are mathematical derivations of the human response.

So. . .  all very complex, very techie. What does all this mean?  Simply, every space contains some subset of what we can see. In some cases (YCH) the space is actually bigger than what we can see.  In the case of SWOP CMYK or sRGB, the pigment values being used to represent the gamut are the limiting factor to how much color we can reproduce.

Why do we choose one space over the other? The answer is very, very simple. It's about how color interaction is calculated. The shape of the gamut makes is easier or more difficult to calculate. The goal is measured color in = measure color out. What You See Is What You Get, not a guess based on some arbitrary overlapping extraction of color.

If you look at the shape of the gamut in Tom's example you'll notice it looks like an inverted iceberg. Very difficult compound shape. The  computer uses complex mathematics to take this continuously changing shape and blend the values accurately. It is flippin crazy complex.

When we were developing ICISS, it was necessary to hire two PhD mathematicians to interpret the printed data, develop the algorithms and then make it usable. It amounts to continuous 3D calculus. I've taken calculus and know how to use it, and it was WAAAAYYYY beyond anything I had ever done. This is one of the reasons that program is so expensive. There is REAL math and science behind it, not just color extraction.

If you look at the wire frame in Tom's video, the process in the past has been designed to break the gamut into polygonal shapes and calculate the color of each shape. Much easier to do, but not all that accurate as color does not easily blend. You are essentially calculating panels of color between color.

Spaces like L*a*b* and HSB are essentially represented as spherical shapes that are much easier to calculate with less distortion and color shifting. No matter what color space you are using, some distortion will occur BECAUSE the human eye does not perceive color precisely based on the calculations. All color separations are based on relative color matching (as in one color relative to the next color)

The human eye sees things based on human perception, and there are gliches and errors in the correction. We have a mental short circuit with some colors. For instance, if you add black to yellow you do not get dark yellow, you get muddy green. Look at the Pantone book on the page that has Pantone 109 and look at what happens to the yellow as it moves to 110, 111, and 112.

The reason we chose HSB way back in '93-'94 was because it was the space that's easy to conceptualize for an artist. Most artists are not programmers or mathematically inclined. The computer calculates color as a set of 3 numbers .
H= Hue = Color Name = 0°-360° as in a color wheel that everyone knows. We call the number assigned to the H value the Hue Angle for that color.

S = Saturation = Purity of the color = 0% (no color) - 100% (pure color.),

B=Brightness=Emissive Value of the Pixel on the monitor = 0% (black) -100% (full color value). Emissive means light behind. It is not "reflected" light value. For printing on BLACK or colored backgrounds HSB is the ONLY color space that can be used to get the correct underbase values (but that is an entirely different story for another time.)

So using this example. The Hue Angle starts at 0° (red) and moves clockwise back to 360° (Red). Primary colors and their compliments are located 60° apart. Red- 0°/360°, Yellow-60°, Green-120°, Cyan-180°, Blue-240°, Magenta-300°.

You can use the color picker in Photoshop to learn how to see and visualize any color as a number by selecting a color with the eye dropper and then looking at the HSB values in the Color Picker window. I have attached the HSB for Pantone 109 as an example.

We recognized to accurately color separate, you had to be able to "see" a color and mentally be able to convert it to a series of numbers the computer could map and calculate.

So, bottomline. HSB is the most addressible space. When you have an addressable space, you can make better color decisions as to how the separation will proceed.  I don't know how Tom's program works or if it's based on selection and ranging or if it does indeed have the ability to map a pigment against the actual values in the original so it will be able to reproduce accurately. Anytime you move from one space to the next, there will be loss in the process. The more addressible the color space, the more things we can do to compensate for the loss.

As a printer, all of this should be in the background. I am, and always have been a 100% proponent of the math and science behind everything we do. That is my job, to make sure the foundation assumptions are consistent with the higher laws of mechanics, physics, chemistry, math, etc. I am an engineer by nature and this is why I get excited when I see someone else figuring this all out.

You might ask why this has been kept "secret" for all these years. In reality it is no secret at all. I have never been the kind of marketer who sells his products base on a sales pitch or a bunch of marketing mumbo jumbo that can't be explained.

All I know is that it works better than anything else

and if you are really, really serious about color separation and getting great color you need to know how to "see" color as numbers and understand where you are going with it.

If we do our job right, each of you should be able to get great results without having to know too much about how you get there.  For those who are really serious, you can download The Top Ten Quick Start Guide to Printing Halftones at www.halftonesecrets.com. It's free. And for the REALLY serious, you can visit www.HalftoneMastery.com for more info.

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Offline inkman996

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2013, 12:06:53 PM »
So the industry has not been "ignorant" to HSB color space for Ever interesting.
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Offline Inkworks

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2013, 12:21:04 PM »
Inkman, you're probably mistaking "passion" for hostility.

Sometimes it's not what is typed, but the tone we give it when we read it.

I for one am extremely interested in the info and videos in his posts. I sure as hell don't know how I'll fit learning process/"sim process" into my workload, but I'm sure gonna try. AA, you doing any seminars up in Western Canada anytime soon?   :P ;D
Wishin' I was Fishin'

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2013, 12:48:25 PM »
Inkman, you're probably mistaking "passion" for hostility.

Sometimes it's not what is typed, but the tone we give it when we read it.

I for one am extremely interested in the info and videos in his posts. I sure as hell don't know how I'll fit learning process/"sim process" into my workload, but I'm sure gonna try. AA, you doing any seminars up in Western Canada anytime soon?   :P ;D


No plans for that at this time but we do have a bun in the oven so to say... www.openscreenprinting.com we just remodeled a shop with an 8 color manual and all the trimmings. On that site we will produce free screen printing videos and cover the entire process from art/design to separating to the printing press. All of which should get started in the next 2 to 3 weeks.

We are planning on comparing many things in the interest of getting every shop up to speed at the highest level possible given the equipment they have. It is possible to do very high end looking prints with just a few colors and it is possible to do amazing prints with more colors.

Lets hope it all comes together effectively on the screen printing training side
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 12:54:53 PM by AdvancedArtist »

Offline screenxpress

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2013, 01:02:53 PM »
3 might be a minimum but you could pull off a fairly decent print with two color in HSB because the hue could be toned down or dialed in with brightness.
Hey, I'm just a part time printer using one of the not-so-expensive seps.  Yea, I tweaked the two channels, but would this be acceptable to the "average" customer (not wanting to pay the price for high end seps)?  And this was quick using the original posted (low res) image.  Top was screen shot of the post above for reference.  Bottom is 3 color on black substrate.  Would probably be a bit closer with a more redish brown.  I do realize this is marginal at best, but was curious how close could come with the fewest colors.  By the way, it looks better on my monitor, lol.



« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 01:10:21 PM by screenxpress »
Anything important is never left to the vote of the people. We only get to vote on some man; we never get to vote on what he is to do.  Will Rogers

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Re: Curiosity
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2013, 01:21:03 PM »

Hey, I'm just a part time printer using one of the not-so-expensive seps.  Yea, I tweaked the two channels, but would this be acceptable to the "average" customer (not wanting to pay the price for high end seps)?  And this was quick using the original posted (low res) image.  Top was screen shot of the post above for reference.  Bottom is 3 color on black substrate.  Would probably be a bit closer with a more redish brown.  I do realize this is marginal at best, but was curious how close could come with the fewest colors.  By the way, it looks better on my monitor, lol.
[/quote]

Thanks for the sharing that screenexpress! I was thinking along the same lines.