Is discharge really less expensive?

[tonypep]

It definitely can be. We've been conducting  less than perfect scientific studies across the board on all sorts of jobs; from long runs to short; one color to eight and so on. Lets take a DCUB for instance. Here we're not saving on film, screen, setups. But my comparison of a Rutland SF white plastsiol vs CCI (or anyones) DC white is a 35% ink savings (keep in mind that SF white is cheap @42. per gal). Nothing to sneeze at especially when you get past a $1,000 pc order. Now lets take a 48 pc 2 color order on darks. Here we save on film and screen. Set up time has typically been cut by half as we dont have that pesky underbase to contend with. And not only are we using less expensive ink we are using less of it as we are not laying down a $40 to $60 white plastisol. We have eliminated it all together.
Where can you get hung up? Waste. This its why it's critical to not only to have an organized mixing area but keep well documented formulas at hand. We have found that by underestimating the amount of ink needed for a job and replacing it with fresh ink towards the end (knowing this just takes a few minutes), we will be left with little leftover. Popular colors are mixed in large batches and are activated as needed. This takes seconds.
My best guestimate is that in our shop discharge is between 15% to 20% less expensive depending on the job. We have found that the savings increase incrementally as run lengths decrease.

[mk162]

There are a few things that are holding me back from going more discharge.  The main one being garment curing.  I find it to be deceptive when you think it's good, and it washes out.  That is a tough one to contend with.

The other is the smell, but that might be taken care of with the new inks coming out.

[blue moon]

It definitely can be. We've been conducting  less than perfect scientific studies across the board on all sorts of jobs; from long runs to short; one color to eight and so on. Lets take a DCUB for instance. Here we're not saving on film, screen, setups. But my comparison of a Rutland SF white plastsiol vs CCI (or anyones) DC white is a 35% ink savings (keep in mind that SF white is cheap @42. per gal). Nothing to sneeze at especially when you get past a $1,000 pc order. Now lets take a 48 pc 2 color order on darks. Here we save on film and screen. Set up time has typically been cut by half as we dont have that pesky underbase to contend with. And not only are we using less expensive ink we are using less of it as we are not laying down a $40 to $60 white plastisol. We have eliminated it all together.
Where can you get hung up? Waste. This its why it's critical to not only to have an organized mixing area but keep well documented formulas at hand. We have found that by underestimating the amount of ink needed for a job and replacing it with fresh ink towards the end (knowing this just takes a few minutes), we will be left with little leftover. Popular colors are mixed in large batches and are activated as needed. This takes seconds.
My best guestimate is that in our shop discharge is between 15% to 20% less expensive depending on the job. We have found that the savings increase incrementally as run lengths decrease.

you mean the other way around, right? the bigger the order the bigger the savings?

pierre

[tonypep]

No Pierre. See the screen/film/setup cost elimintaion are less important (expensive) on say a 5K run vs 50 pcs. Does that make sense?

[tonypep]

Yes Brad the fumes are in issue for many (samples arriving today) good ventillation is of course the answer. As far as cure goes that comment raised an eyebrow. We have never experienced this and wash test on site daily.

[mk162]

I had a job that discharged perfectly, then after the first wash, the print disappeared.  I think I had 2 problems...1. I didn't drive the ink deep enough, 2. I didn't cure it long enough.

[tonypep]

We always slow the dryers down a titch for discharge just in case.

[Rob Coleman]

I had a job that discharged perfectly, then after the first wash, the print disappeared.  I think I had 2 problems...1. I didn't drive the ink deep enough, 2. I didn't cure it long enough.

Many times the print will fully discharge without being fully "cured", thus the product will not be washfast.  As you know, air flow, time, and temperature are imperative.

I did some quick research on-line some time ago looking at various manufacturers curing requirements.  For what it is worth, here are the recommendations.  Bottom line, significantly more time than plastisol for sure!  ps - pulled these a number of months ago, so if some of the numbers have changed -- don't yell!

                         Temperature   Time in minutes
CCI (ideal)             340-350            2-3
CCI                         320                    1.5
Magna AB-AW        330                    3
Magna ULF          330-340            3
Jantex                    330-350            3-5
Rutland WB-99       320                    1.5
Sericol Texcharge   320-360            2-3
Matsui                    300-320            2.5-3

[tonypep]

AHA! My dryers are set to 390 and have 20 ft of heat so 1.5 min works fine all day. Thanks Rob for that info. As we all know retention time is directly affected by dryer efficiency and chamber length.

[3Deep]

I see our point Tony and agree small jobs less time and screens more profit, big jobs tend to pay for themselves and you can hide the cost a little.  Example running two whites for a small job vs running two whites on a big job which would you save more on.

Darryl

[tonypep]

It's exponential. Thats why when quoting orders of say 5K or more screen/film/setup costs are often waived as they become meaningless and tend to piss off large buyers.

[blue moon]

I am thinking this woudl depend on a definition of the small job. for us that's 12-24 pieces. I can see the time to mix the inks (add teh agent) and then the cost of having to throw some ink away eat into the profits. BUT I do agree that less screens and no underbase issues makes things easier and thus faster. Could that translate into cheaper too? not so sure . . .

pierre

[tonypep]

Absolutely that would be true we would'nt go there except for the fact we have so many premixed formula stock colors on the shelf (about 80) Which goes back to the original post that it can be.
If I were starting out no; I would probably have a minimum of144 for DC

[3Deep]

Right now color tees are killing me cuz every job needs an under base, which I need to hit twice on our press two rounds which is costing me time, a 200 pc job can turn into a 800 print run if I have to do back and front with UB, so I looking at discharge but I,m just not getting what I want ( white just ain't happen) plus our dryer is to small.  I think I,m getting off track now just my rant for the day.

Darryl

[alan802]

Right now color tees are killing me cuz every job needs an under base, which I need to hit twice on our press two rounds which is costing me time, a 200 pc job can turn into a 800 print run if I have to do back and front with UB, so I looking at discharge but I,m just not getting what I want ( white just ain't happen) plus our dryer is to small.  I think I,m getting off track now just my rant for the day.

Darryl

So for example, on a red ink print on black shirt you are doing double stroke, flash, double stroke, flash, then top color red?