Use CCI D-base without activator instead of CCI W-base

[ScreenPrinter123]

Is it possible to use the CCI pigments with the d-base (no activator) to print a variety of pms waterbase colors.  This would be in the place of using the W-base which I believe is made for this purpose.

I only ask because we have a job that I cannot get the W-base in quick enough for and was wondering if non-activated d-base was an option.

[Screened Gear]

Is it possible to use the CCI pigments with the d-base (no activator) to print a variety of pms waterbase colors.  This would be in the place of using the W-base which I believe is made for this purpose.

I only ask because we have a job that I cannot get the W-base in quick enough for and was wondering if non-activated d-base was an option.

Short answer is yes you can.

From what I hear the W-base is the same as the old (not around anymore) X-base. The only change is the W-base has more binding agents. The d-base will work but does not have as much binding agents as the W-base or the X-base. If you want to be safe when using the d-base add some fixer and you should be fine.

I am no expert on this so be careful and test.

[Screened Gear]

Just a little added info.

The quarts of pigments I just got have that you can use as much as 30 percent pigment to base. So 10 percent is the full load for pantone matches and 30 is the max for pigment over load before they say wash fastness could be an issue. Thats on the label. Sounds like a lot of pigment. I wonder if you still do the base less. Like for the pantone Mixes you do 90 percent base to 10 percent pigment. So if you do 30 percent pigment is the base for that mix 70 percent. Or is the 30 percent "warning" for total percent of base weight? I think I maybe over thinking it. Hell now 'm confused...thanks waterbase inks.

[ebscreen]

Rutland states max %30 pigment load as well. We've never gone that high, but we have done up to about %15
on some reds with no major difference in washfastness.

As for using D-Base without activator, we have done it and not had problems, but we're probably at %5-8 pigment load.

[ZooCity]

I'd like to think this was fine to do but consider this- why did they even bother with the W-Base then?

I've said it in another post that I'm not sold on running DC ink as unactivated WB.  I see things that freak me out...like fibrilation on the very tips of the fibers after 3-4 washings.  Reckon those additional binding agents in the W-Base are doing what the DC does via activator. 

Just a theory so far.  I'm sure you can get away with this for most prints, we have.  But I think the proper way to go is to use the right base for the application. 

I, for one, would have preferred they formulated the D-Base to accept some binding agent as an additive and become a good straight WB ink so we could just buy buckets of a single base but that may not be a chemical possibility.

[ebscreen]

For a long while there CCI didn't have a regular/non-discharge base.

One occasion I can think of we were printing some mid-grounds and didn't know if certain
colors were going to need to discharge or not, so we used d-base and didn't activate unless
we needed it. Wash tests months later were fine.

If you think about it, the base has to bind the pigment regardless. Of course it's best
to use the right product, and there's a price incentive there as well.

YMMV.

[kingscreen]

We ran D-Base with no pigment and no activator on a variety of heather color tees to create a tone-on-tone look. We had no issues, however, we did print a sample that we scrubbed and washed multiple times prior to committing to the full run a few days later. Here are some photos.

[Screened Gear]

We ran D-Base with no pigment and no activator on a variety of heather color tees to create a tone-on-tone look. We had no issues, however, we did print a sample that we scrubbed and washed multiple times prior to committing to the full run a few days later. Here are some photos.

You meant d-white, right? The photos look like d-white and black ink. Am I missing something?

[kingscreen]

You meant d-white, right? The photos look like d-white and black ink. Am I missing something?

I should clarify, for this print I mixed 2 to 1 ratio, D-Base / D-White. No activator. No additional pigment.

[ZooCity]

For a long while there CCI didn't have a regular/non-discharge base.

One occasion I can think of we were printing some mid-grounds and didn't know if certain
colors were going to need to discharge or not, so we used d-base and didn't activate unless
we needed it. Wash tests months later were fine.

If you think about it, the base has to bind the pigment regardless. Of course it's best
to use the right product, and there's a price incentive there as well.

YMMV.

Not with CCI, but with Sericol, I'm not sold on the ink for use unactivated.  CCI pigs coming in this week so I'll do a side-by-side soon. 

I don't mind making standalone WB mixes but it sure would be nice to grab some WB red, activate and tweak for a DC run to save on the waste.

[ScreenPrinter123]

I appreciate the replies.  It would be for a dark grey print on a lime shirt so I would think it shouldn't be a problem but if we attempt it I will do a wash test to be sure.

[ZooCity]

I appreciate the replies.  It would be for a dark grey print on a lime shirt so I would think it shouldn't be a problem but if we attempt it I will do a wash test to be sure.

In my experience with Sericol in a situation like that, I would be hesitant and err on the side of activating the grey ink.  Currently, I'm convinced the activator helps the pigment encapsulate the fibers all the way to their tips/ends.   I might even get a cheap microscope to confirm what I think I'm seeing. 

CCI may work better for this and, I'm not bagging on Sericol here, they make it clear that Texcharge is designed to be activated and printed on 100% reactive dyed cotton so dropping it unactivated on everything from cotton to 50/50s and tri-blends is my problem, not theirs.

Let us know how the test comes out- pics!

[Spreading Ink]

Don't know if I am too late to add anything of value - sorry no time in the day.

We buy all of our bases (discharge white/d base) in drums - we do not buy and have never bought standard water base bases - just another ink to have around and we find there are times where we will have a color printed that we don't intend to discharge to get a certain look and then find we need about 1 - 2% agent to get the look we are going for and don't have to remix.  Yes, the d base is slightly more expensive, but it's one less ink to have around as well.

We have been through many different companies bases, pigments and inks along the way and still occasionally switch up inks - and have never had any problem with mixing one companies pigments with another's bases etc... YMMV, but that is just how we roll and have never had any issues.

Hope this helps!

[ZooCity]

Don't know if I am too late to add anything of value - sorry no time in the day.

We buy all of our bases (discharge white/d base) in drums - we do not buy and have never bought standard water base bases - just another ink to have around and we find there are times where we will have a color printed that we don't intend to discharge to get a certain look and then find we need about 1 - 2% agent to get the look we are going for and don't have to remix.  Yes, the d base is slightly more expensive, but it's one less ink to have around as well.

We have been through many different companies bases, pigments and inks along the way and still occasionally switch up inks - and have never had any problem with mixing one companies pigments with another's bases etc... YMMV, but that is just how we roll and have never had any issues.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for chiming in- sounds like you print a lot of this seeing as you are buying it by the 30gal.  So yes, I'd say anything you have to add is of immense value!

I'm reading this as you need to add activator on occasion to get the d-base to perform well? 

Just trying to see if my theory holds water here and if the above is true that would help confirm it.  In case I wasn't clear I have it in my head that DC ink needs to be activated to perform 100%.  You may only need a low % but it needs to be in there and will not be at it's best without it.  So I'm super curious about this and right there with you in that I would prefer to have one base to stock.

Have you done a side by side of a WB mix with an unactivated D-Base mix?

[Screened Gear]

Zoo,

Spreading ink didn't say what you thought. He is referring to when you are going to just print waterbase ink on a mid color shirt with out any discharge agent. The color didn't come out light enough or the color of the shirt was fighting with the ink color too much. So they then can just add agent to that ink and try again (using just a little some times like 1 to 2 percent). If they used 2 bases they would have to trash the WB ink and then mix the color all over with DC base, pigments and agent.

I understand what your saying and I don't think your theory is correct. (my opinion) What your seeing is this... Waterbase ink has to have a higher opacity to cover the darker shirt color. DC only needs enough opacity to cover the DCed color of the shirt (white or off white). Its much like plastisol one pass on a white shirt looks amazing but on a black shirt you see area that were not 100 percent covered. The same with WB you will see fibers that were not 100 percent covered. If that same shirt was DC printed the areas that had less then 100 percent ink coverage would have covered fine or enough your eye would not see it.