Screen Tensions....???

[jsheridan]

I would LOVE to have someone come in a "show" us how this is suppoused to run or at least get some more training via classes or visiting other shops, and I have suggested that to the owners but they don't want to "pay" for stuff like that,

Where are you located Nick.. I do consulting and have some really good rates. They may not want to pay for it, but they will pay 4 times the amount, maybe more in lost time and money should they continue to just keep 'trying' to print shirts and shucking the responsibility of how to on your shoulders.

[ZooCity]

That 230, being new, is just criminal.   May as well "save some more money" and break out the staple gun.  You can make the frames out of old pallet wood.....

That's a rough spot you are in.  I would move on if they can't be pushed in the right direction.  John is right, one day with him would be worth gold to this shop.   Keep in mind that people exhibiting this kind of behavior typically aren't going to give you a damn thing in return for the help you might give them.  May be better to just start up on your own sooner than later.

For now, I would avoid S or thin thread mesh screens, your crew will destroy them.  Stick with standard and get a better provider for your static frames.  It's disheartening to see DK go through so many suppliers and not a one sent a screen at or above 20n but someone out there can do it, I used to get decent tensions from Pocono if I recall correctly. 

[alan802]

Higher tension in a nutshell has advantages like:

increased image sharpness
consistent halftone reproduction
lower reject rates
improved profits
maintains square mesh openings
prolongs mesh life
more consistent stencil buildup
longer stencil life
less pinholes
more consistent exposures
improved edge resolutions
shorter exposure times
more screen throughput
print with less off contact
improved image registration
fewer press adjustments needed
faster setups
increased press efficiency/productivity
increased press life
better control of ink transfer
decreased squeegee pressure needed
faster print stroke
more consistent ink volume
improved ink opacity and more true colors
decreased ink penetration into substrate
better ink release/shear
less ink build up
screens reclaim faster
less chems needed for reclamation

Here are some stats that have been done from some pretty "big time", world class operations so I trust these numbers.  There are some large ranges but you'll see these types of numbers regardless of how efficient or terribly poor at doing this:

100-800% increase in mesh fabric life
30-50% faster press setups (I think these numbers can be larger in the right atmosphere)
40-100% faster stencil making
40-100% faster reclaim
10-30% less reject rate
500-1000% reduction in ink buildup
20-100% faster squeegee speed
40-300% longer stencil life
40-300% longer squeegee life

There are actually a lot more stats that can backup the argument for higher tension.  I think if you're currently double stroking and flashing after every color then you'll see a huge increase in productivity by using higher tension, not to mention you'll be doing half the wear and tear on your press by single stroking and not using revolver mode all the time.  The increase in the longevity of you're automatic is often overlooked in the tension argument but will have a great financial affect, short and long term.

I think we could go on and on but you need to show some of those stats to your boss and ask him how they can not afford to make the decision to use higher tension screens.  I know it might mean that someone could lose a job but maybe it could do what it's done here at our shop...increase quality, faster turnarounds and better service that has brought in a lot more customers and word of mouth advertising.  Since 2006, we've been able to keep the same payroll outside in screen printing production but we did 564 more jobs in 2012 versus 2006 and using high tension screens played a large roll in those increases.  Our shop stats are absolute fact that I am not fluffing up for the argument's sake.

And taking John's advice would yield you amazing results very quick and would be worth every penny.  Your bosses are like a lot of others in this industry and consultants have gotten a bad rap in a lot of industries but there are a few really good ones in our field that could turn your operation around with very little investment when you really think about it.

[Rocfrog]

I've got the exact same meter. The first picture indicates that it's calibrated correctly. I don't measure tension on screens with emulsion on them, always on clean screens. I would think that emulsion would tend to give a higher reading since there wouldn't be as much deflection over the coated area. Others might know better.

ya I figured the emulsion would effect the reading but it's all we have right now.....being dead means we don't have many screens that need coated....

Where are you located Nick.. I do consulting and have some really good rates. They may not want to pay for it, but they will pay 4 times the amount, maybe more in lost time and money should they continue to just keep 'trying' to print shirts and shucking the responsibility of how to on your shoulders.

We are located in Colorado Springs, CO. I completely understand the need for this and think it would help 10fold if not more, but this is something the owners just don't want to hear.....

That's a rough spot you are in.  I would move on if they can't be pushed in the right direction.  John is right, one day with him would be worth gold to this shop.   Keep in mind that people exhibiting this kind of behavior typically aren't going to give you a damn thing in return for the help you might give them.  May be better to just start up on your own sooner than later.

Tell me about it, I'm not even going into details about this place because I don't like to bad mouth people behind their backs, even when it's the honest truth. This is honestly one of the most difficult places I've worked in a very long time. I do tons for this company, I was hired for the Graphic Design position, but because I love to work on/build cars as a hobby the owner sees me as a "handy guy" and I get to do all repairs and maintenance on all the equipment, manage the two screen printers, chorale the sales people, keep track of orders.......ect.....ect.... all that on an unpaid interns hourly rate......

If things go right I should be doing my own thing by the end of summer......

Nick

[Rocfrog]

alan802.......I've seen and read some of your posts and honestly you were the one I was hoping would read this and offer some advice!

You make some very good/valid points and 90% of that list is what we are having issues with......

Nick

[tonypep]

This is all too common in our industry. Relatively speaking it is rather cheap to get into; however the money runs out quickly. We are in sore need of some new equipment but over the years they can do some amazing work on machines that are 20 ys old in some cases. We really see the need for upgrading but somehow something always comes up. This a very expensive place to run. Sometimes if you don't have the money you simply don't have it even if that same money can make you more money

[inkman996]

I've got the exact same meter. The first picture indicates that it's calibrated correctly. I don't measure tension on screens with emulsion on them, always on clean screens. I would think that emulsion would tend to give a higher reading since there wouldn't be as much deflection over the coated area. Others might know better.

ya I figured the emulsion would effect the reading but it's all we have right now.....being dead means we don't have many screens that need coated....

Where are you located Nick.. I do consulting and have some really good rates. They may not want to pay for it, but they will pay 4 times the amount, maybe more in lost time and money should they continue to just keep 'trying' to print shirts and shucking the responsibility of how to on your shoulders.

We are located in Colorado Springs, CO. I completely understand the need for this and think it would help 10fold if not more, but this is something the owners just don't want to hear.....

That's a rough spot you are in.  I would move on if they can't be pushed in the right direction.  John is right, one day with him would be worth gold to this shop.   Keep in mind that people exhibiting this kind of behavior typically aren't going to give you a damn thing in return for the help you might give them.  May be better to just start up on your own sooner than later.

Tell me about it, I'm not even going into details about this place because I don't like to bad mouth people behind their backs, even when it's the honest truth. This is honestly one of the most difficult places I've worked in a very long time. I do tons for this company, I was hired for the Graphic Design position, but because I love to work on/build cars as a hobby the owner sees me as a "handy guy" and I get to do all repairs and maintenance on all the equipment, manage the two screen printers, chorale the sales people, keep track of orders.......ect.....ect.... all that on an unpaid interns hourly rate......

If things go right I should be doing my own thing by the end of summer......

Nick

You probably do not want to hear this but one of the worst life choices you can make in life is working for someone that expects you to manage their business yet will not give you what you need to manage that business correctly. In the end buddy you will always get the blame for not making it work, the owners will never admit its their fault for not allowing you to put in the correct procedures and standards to run a busy shop.

BTW Seriously talk to them about bringing in someone like John, just the double stroking alone is a waste of squeegee material through out a year assuming your bosses allow you to replace worn squeegees. Johns price I would think can save you just on that alone not to mention the really big stuff like time!

[Nick Bane]

I'll throw another vote in for john.  Knows what hes talking about, can get your issues sorted and get you set on the right track, im sure for a more than fair price.

Good luck there, it is a tough spot to be in.

[Frog]

I'll throw another vote in for john.  Knows what hes talking about, can get your issues sorted and get you set on the right track, im sure for a more than fair price.

Good luck there, it is a tough spot to be in.

I'd rather pay a price that's more than fair, than pay more than a fair price. The latter sounds like  it would be higher. lol

[Rocfrog]

I want to thank everyone for thier great responses, even though the thread kind of got derailed into how bad of a shop I work at....LOL!!!

I guess now I just need to figure out how to bring this up to the owners and get the rescreeners involved so we can get these screens replaced.....I might throw in a word or two about consulting but not sure that's going to fly with them. But I will keep the contact info handy for my future personal use.

Nick

[alan802]

I would print this thread out and put it on their desk and be as open and honest as you can with them.  Let them know that you're in it with them, not just to spend their money.  Sometimes it hurts to put down some serious cash when you can't physically see results. Taking some advice on a discussion forum for people who don't "get" them or realize the wealth of knowledge that is available on them is not an easy thing for them to do either.  That's why I always like to throw out those stats and especially those with our shop because I witnessed that with my own eyes and have been through all the weird issues you are having right now.  I've been at the shop all night trying to print 1000 4-color job on navy while having one issue after another after another that when we print something like that now, only twice as difficult we are setup, printed, boxed and teardown in less than 2 hours.  I've been there for all those double stroking and using revolver mode on a 4 color job and there is no need to do it.  Like Mike said, more than half the battle of this screen printing stuff is having the right tools for the job, and 8-12 newton screens are not the right tools for plastisol printing.

If you can talk them into a consultant, I think John would be perfect.  There are, for the most part, two types of consultants out there right now, the production heavy guys and then the high-end/award winning printers who will share a lot of the secrets.  There are obviously a few more things to it than that but what I'm getting at is you need a production guy, not an award winning sim process guru.  A local shop around here recently made a mistake in the type of consultant they hired, they got a guy who wasn't all that well versed in running a 4 auto shop and was more into getting a 3%, 85lpi halftone out of a 330/30.  A world class printer no doubt but they needed production inhancements and knowledge on mesh count selection for a spot color school mascot job for example.  I'm not bitter about losing that gig , but seriously they got plenty out of the visit I'm sure but they got a lot they didn't need and missed out on things they did need.  Then there are a rare few that have managed to blend the two types of consultant into one guru and you get the best of both worlds, but those guys are really expensive or rare, or both.

[Frog]

Nick, not to take anything away from John, but you guys also have Doug Grigar and his Grendel classes in Denver.

http://www.thegrendel.com/train.html

[tonypep]

I would print this thread out and put it on their desk and be as open and honest as you can with them.  Let them know that you're in it with them, not just to spend their money.  Sometimes it hurts to put down some serious cash when you can't physically see results. Taking some advice on a discussion forum for people who don't "get" them or realize the wealth of knowledge that is available on them is not an easy thing for them to do either.  That's why I always like to throw out those stats and especially those with our shop because I witnessed that with my own eyes and have been through all the weird issues you are having right now.  I've been at the shop all night trying to print 1000 4-color job on navy while having one issue after another after another that when we print something like that now, only twice as difficult we are setup, printed, boxed and teardown in less than 2 hours.  I've been there for all those double stroking and using revolver mode on a 4 color job and there is no need to do it.  Like Mike said, more than half the battle of this screen printing stuff is having the right tools for the job, and 8-12 newton screens are not the right tools for plastisol printing.

If you can talk them into a consultant, I think John would be perfect.  There are, for the most part, two types of consultants out there right now, the production heavy guys and then the high-end/award winning printers who will share a lot of the secrets.  There are obviously a few more things to it than that but what I'm getting at is you need a production guy, not an award winning sim process guru.  A local shop around here recently made a mistake in the type of consultant they hired, they got a guy who wasn't all that well versed in running a 4 auto shop and was more into getting a 3%, 85lpi halftone out of a 330/30.  A world class printer no doubt but they needed production inhancements and knowledge on mesh count selection for a spot color school mascot job for example.  I'm not bitter about losing that gig , but seriously they got plenty out of the visit I'm sure but they got a lot they didn't need and missed out on things they did need.  Then there are a rare few that have managed to blend the two types of consultant into one guru and you get the best of both worlds, but those guys are really expensive or rare, or both.

Which is why I rarely bother. I do have a pretty reasonable history of running highend to midgrade production facilities but have found, over time, that so many are so far backwards it's hard to know where to begin. Plus they totally don't get the value of the visit. Also you will often find that after the visit, things revert to past methods and processes. It's almost like a slap in the face to the know it all. So what's the point.

[Rocfrog]

Nick, not to take anything away from John, but you guys also have Doug Grigar and his Grendel classes in Denver.

http://www.thegrendel.com/train.html

Ummm...I wasn't going to mention any comapny or peoples names on here but RockStar Screen Supply is who does our resceening......

Nick

[jsheridan]

Tell me about it, I'm not even going into details about this place because I don't like to bad mouth people behind their backs, even when it's the honest truth. This is honestly one of the most difficult places I've worked in a very long time. I do tons for this company, I was hired for the Graphic Design position, but because I love to work on/build cars as a hobby the owner sees me as a "handy guy" and I get to do all repairs and maintenance on all the equipment, manage the two screen printers, chorale the sales people, keep track of orders.......ect.....ect.... all that on an unpaid interns hourly rate......

If things go right I should be doing my own thing by the end of summer......

Nick

Nick.. all of this is happening because you let it happen. In your quest to be the 'good' intern, you let this guy walk all over you thinking if you do this for him, he'll do that for you and my guess.. they haven't done a single thing for you but make your life more difficult as you work harder and harder to solve their problems.

 This is a dose of truth, it will never get better at that shop and the best thing you can do is walk away with the info you have gained and let them sort out their own problems.

Being in Colorado.. you have Graphic Elephants in Elizabeth, Lon and Jason are a couple of world class consultants.