About to buy an M&R Chameleon or a Sidewinder - Have a few Questions First

[sonicweaponprinting]

First off, this is my first post on these forums, I tend to always get and find some really great threads whenever I have questions, and just wanted to say thanks already for all the great info that can be found here. I also like how helpful everyone is when they respond to people, and it seems like a great community, so I'm glad I've finally joined. Thanks to those who contribute so frequently, I always love learning new things here.

So, about my original post subject, I am only a few months old into my operation as a side business, its going really well, have printed about 12-14 jobs for a total of about 12-1400 tees, but I'm currently setup on a workhorse Manual tabletop bench press 4/1 and I'm quickly getting large jobs and repeat orders of those jobs that are fairly technical in their designs, so they're really slowing down my efficiency w/ how man flashes they need. After months of researching vastex, m&r, anatol, antec, and Brown mfg presses, I had narrowed my choice down to a Vastex V2000HD, mainly for price, and also for solid construction. After telling a friend who runs his shop that he also built up from the same tabletop press I own that I lent to him in college, who owns a Hopkins International, and a Sidewinder, as well as a Javelin, told me I'd hate printing on the vastex due to the boards being designed weird (a personal observation I was concerned about originally before finding out from someone who had owned one and sold one first hand) and that it was almost too heavy for long periods of printing.  Then I also was informed from another member of the board here about a few other things that just kind of struck me as odd from a design perspective on the v2000hd (skateboard wheel and truck for indexing) that no other presses had in their designs. (why?)

When it came down to re-examining I decided on a sidewinder 6/6 or a 6/4, possibly with airlocks. I'd like the ability to be able to upgrade a chameleon from a 6/6/ to a 10/6 or a 6/4 to a 10/4 down the road with the second upper deck of arms.  The expandability of the chameleon is attractive, and I'd also most likely be getting side clamps on the chameleon or sidewinder as well.

The questions I had was, what would you guys pick if you had to chance to purchase one new, sidewinder, or the chameleon, and for what reasons. If the sidewinder, is it due to lightness and easier to print on for longer periods? or if its the chameleon, is it because its more solid or rigid w/ less flex and no chances for small registration issues due to the flex?

Second question, if I use airclamps, what is the lowest psi compressor needed, and is a chiller also needed to run the air locks. I have a small basement, and work during the middle of the night, would I have to be concerned w/ the compressor kicking on and off as frequently as they do when they are powering auto presses? Can anyone post a picture of their compression tanks used to power their manual m&R airlocked press?

I saw a ton of great picks that Alan Johnston posted of his sidewinder on here and it is a beautiful press. I guess I'm just trying to make sure I'm making the right choice for all the right reasons before I pull the trigger on one of these babies.

244, I think you are the person I need to be speaking to, maybe we can talk offline about a possible end of the year sale ... maybe one of these deals I can't refuse I've heard about. cough cough. 

- Shawn @ sonicweapon

[Frog]

Not to take anything away from Rich and his deals, but have you looked at any of these presses up close and personal? Maybe changed a board, pushed a squeegee, or spun some heads and boards?

Also, if you want a really good deal, what about used? Rarely should you have to pay more than 60% of the new price for a like-new press.

[jsheridan]

I used to print on a sidewinder, now I spin a cham 8/6 daily and run samples and production runs everyday all day.

I'd take the Cham 6/6 OR 8/6  and don't look back. You'll never outgrow the press, rather your shop will grow around it.

I personally own a Lawson HD max 6/4 and can print just the same as on the Cham, it just takes longer to setup the jobs and the micros are funky.

[Binkspot]

We have both the Sidewinder and Vastex, both excellent presses. I use the Sidewinder for garments and Vastex for numbers and "Odd Stuff". There is nothing "cheap" about the Vastex and it is a good press, they just look like they are from the 1960's. The skate wheel is just a stoping or reference point for the pallets, not much different then the ball and spring on the Sidewinder. You could actually use either press with out them. It's actually the reg gate that counts 

IMO the six color Sidewinder is the way to go for all day manual printing. It will hold reg even on a cold winter day pushing white poly. Again IMO the Chameleon is too heavy for all day use but the ability for extra colors is nice. Also consider the pallets and accessories are compatible with an auto if you ever upgrade. 

Side clamps are a must, air clamps are nice. Once clamped as long as there are no leaks they will consume no air. You could use one of those portable air tanks you fill at the gas station or even a tire inflators to work the clamps and no chiller/dryer needed.

Like Frog said there are always ones on the used market at reasonable prices.

[sonicweaponprinting]

Thanks for your replies, I agree, my main concern on top of quality of build and speed of setup (I plan on getting a tri-lock, I know Vastex has the VRS as well, same concept I realize) so thats something Else I like about the M&R w/ their quick release platens, I like the design. I have seen a few excellent deals as of late, I'm thinking of getting this one here in Pennsylvania for what looks like a damn steal, $6K for a 10/4 Chameleon w/ sideclamps and Airlocks.

This is a stupid good deal right? I'm trying to get my money together ASAP to see if I can maybe deal w/ this guy. What do you guys think? Im out in Kansas City and was thinking of flying out and driving it back, or Freighting it back.

http://scranton.craigslist.org/tls/3411710730.html

[sonicweaponprinting]

Not to take anything away from Rich and his deals, but have you looked at any of these presses up close and personal? Maybe changed a board, pushed a squeegee, or spun some heads and boards?

Also, if you want a really good deal, what about used? Rarely should you have to pay more than 60% of the new price for a like-new press.

I have experience printing on an old harco Brown mfg press (build solid, very solid), a Riley International, a Riley Hopkins, A workhorse manual, and thats all. I was very attracted to the heads on the vastex, but heard they don't hold rollers very well should my shop ever carry them. I currently use square aluminum 20x24 frames for their ability to warp less, and low cost of getting me started. I use all meshes from 110-305 and am looking for something that could handle larger frames or heavier frames should I get them.

I am also curious about the short armed version of the Sidewinder, does the Chameleon also offer a short armed version for stations? I think I remember seeing that the shortarmed versions hold less weight than the longer standard stations correct?

[Binkspot]

That's why the side clamps are nice, they will hold a bunch of different frames. I can fit up to 25x36 M3 rollers on the Sidewinder and have had 36x36 rollers on the Vastex with a little mod. All rear clamp presses will have trouble holding a roller frame.

[sonicweaponprinting]

That's why the side clamps are nice, they will hold a bunch of different frames. I can fit up to 25x36 M3 rollers on the Sidewinder and have had 36x36 rollers on the Vastex with a little mod. All rear clamp presses will have trouble holding a roller frame.

Nice! Trust me, I had my mind set on the vastex due to its appearance and solid looks. its a total mental mind eff! I had also decided on the vastex because I liked their numbering system, but I actually would never ever want to do numbers, sounds like a huge pain in the ass to be honest. (not my idea of fun) The v2000hd is one of the best looking presses out there, and blue being my least favorite color, makes me put function over fashion when it came down to it. I hear i can set up a job, and leave it on the M&R's, and not have to worry about things breaking down or shifting during a run, not saying that would happen on a vastex at all, but it comes down to dependability and consistency in that dependability. when it times to go auto, I also love the idea of the platens being already setup for that. Is that an option on only the chameleon (to upgrade platens compatible with auto) or is that available on the sidewinder pallets too.

[Mr Tees!!]

...I have a Sidewinder and a Diamondback auto, so heres my take...

...Its sounds like you are starting out well, and if you have future plans to get an auto, get the Sidewinder or the Chameleon. The pallets, TriLoc and other accessories will then be interchangeable between your manual and auto. The Vastex is a great super-sturdy press, but the pallets are proprietary and they dont make an auto.

...I have run, at length, both a Chameleon and the Sidewinder. Both are top-notch presses. As said previously, I would consider side-clamps an absolute must. Air clamps make using the TriLoc 99% more effective, so again, if you plan on going auto, give this option very strong consideration. The Chameleon is almost overbuilt, and some complain of it being rather heavy for all-day use. I never really had a problem with it, and I used the 10-color duo-deck version with air. I bought a Sidewinder (4/4) because I needed a good second, small-run press.

...if you go with an air-clamp model (highly suggested), you can get a small portable air tank and run the air-clamps from that, as it doesnt consume much air. My tank is a small 5-gallon model, and i refill it once every coupla months.

...by the way, the one in the ad looks like a GREAT deal to me, for what you get. Id recommend an in-preson inspection first, but it sure looks clean.

...Good luck!!

...if an auto is in the long-term plan, dont bother with the short-arm press, it will not accept the 23x31 screens your auto will require.

[Binkspot]

Don't get your hopes up on that press in the add. Look at the post date, deals like that don't last too long and it is no longer listed on his web site.

[Mr Tees!!]

...this looks like the same press. Fairly recent on DS, but thats not to say it isnt sold....

http://www.digitsmith.com/m-r-chameleon-10-4-air-side-clamps-35662.html

[ZooCity]

Sidewinder 6/6, side clamps, air locks

Pancake compressor with inline filter for the locks and other misc stuff.

The Chameleon is not, imho a good production press.  Probably great for sampling, too heavy for most for actual production.  The inertia you get from production use of a 8 color chameleon loaded with roller frames is great enough to knock it out of reg and put the platens out of plane.  Constant re-leveling of platens when we had an 8/8.

Don't plan on running a double deck chameleon for production and don't planning on upgrading either- the cost of the top deck is about what a used 10 or 14 station costs. 

I would avoid the vastex.  I've seen them in person and...meh.   

I will say that I have an improved Anatol Thunder coming in a month or so.  The model I have now is a no-go for roller frames but, presuming the re-design is successful, I would not hesitate to recommend that press.  It's superior to all three you mentioned in design- it's lighter, has excellent micros, less platen deflection, four point platen leveling that stays put and nice, long screen clamps - but inferior to all three in overall quality of build and just about bottom of the barrel for service.  But, if they get this press to handle M3 rollers it will be my favorite manual press design that's out there. 

M&R would be my favorite manual but they have a 3 point micro that I dislike and 3 point platen leveling that I also dislike. These two designs waste too much time v. linear micros and four point leveling but others will disagree on that I'm sure.

[Mr Tees!!]

..the Anatol is also a good option, as they use the same pallet tooling as M&R. Boards will still be interchangeable, and Anatol also has their own auto presses.

...Zoo, doesnt the Thunder also have 3-point micro? Website shows it as such...

[sonicweaponprinting]

..the Anatol is also a good option, as they use the same pallet tooling as M&R. Boards will still be interchangeable, and Anatol also has their own auto presses.

...Zoo, doesnt the Thunder also have 3-point micro? Website shows it as such...

I actually did some forum searching on people who had owned an anatol lightning and I saw too many people complaining about small parts or threads failing and didnt ever want to have to deal with stuff that would break that wouldnt on an M&R or something of that quality. I am attracted to anatol price but reputation isnt there for me atleast. Ive heard similar aout the brown mfg manuals having side clamp threads and knobs falling off, no thanks.

I try to do as much research as I can to be as best informed I can and all of your responses have me leaning back to the sidewinder which was my original choice.

I am willing to spend the money to avoid lost heads or downtime over unthought of possible issues so I like m&r on their proven reliability. Sidewinder is ehat Im thinking, either 6/4 or 6/6 w side clamps and airlocks.

[ZooCity]

I think all micros are three point? The anatol has a linear adjustment unlike the x-y style on m&r, hopkins, workhorse where you get an arc. 

I was referring to the brackets that you mount the platens to regarding four points.  I think there might have been a thread on this somewhere where all these engineering level arguments where made for three point mounts but it's like night and day having four now, far superior. 

Yes, it's true that Anatol has the issues described.  it's perplexing though because so much of that is super basic. I don't know why they have not realized it's actually cheaper to just use decent quality small parts rather than service and replace crap ones.  I didn't buy ours based on price so I could care less if the machine cost an extra grand if it meant they got it right... just seems like they are so close but can't get it.