The I-Image experience begins!!!!

[alan802]

It's all about ROI guys, forget quality of life! 

 

Yeah!!!  F it man, who needs investments.

Do you think quality of life/work should be factored into a choice like a CTS?  Or for you is it all about the numbers? 

I don't really know if one should outweigh the other, but if one of them doesn't make sense the other better fill in that "subjective" gap.  My whole argument that people either never read or forgot is that the ROI I calculated was nowhere near what some were saying they got and if the ROI was 3-4 years at our shop, or never like at Tony's shop, it's a much tougher decision.  I never said I wouldn't ever buy one because the ROI isn't going to be a year or two, but that I'd still consider it because of the difference it can make in some areas.  It will not yeild a huge increase in throughput at our shop like some might see because of many different factors I won't get into.  At Sam's shop it allowed them to do more jobs in a week to make the ROI and the decision a no-brainer, one or two more jobs per week for our shop at that price point isn't a no-brainer.  I respect the hell out of Dave but most of his comments are "I told you so" or "nobody will listen to me" but it's not easy to run out and spend 40K on something that won't make you that money back in a reasonable amount of time or increase your quality of life by 40K.  It's up to everyone as an individual shop to determine if it's worth it.  Our quality of life at our shop is already a piece of cake.  I could basically have just about any printer in town if I wanted because of the equipment and how nice things are at our shop, so adding a CTS machine isn't going to take it from a slum to a mansion, more like a 5000 sq/ft home to a 6000 sq/ft home.  Let me make this clear to everyone, I have no doubts that a CTS would make things "nicer" around here, in many different aspects, but to act like it's stupid to even question whether or not it's the greatest investment for a screen printing shop is ridiculous.  You guys do remember the whole premise behind Tony's thread that started the debate don't you?  Adding a CTS to his operation would hurt his production!!!  Our shop is somewhere in between Tony's and Sam's, so it's not just a quality of life decision or an ROI decision, it's freaking complicated for some shops.  I envy those of you who have a shop where it's not a hard decision.  And I've said this numerous times as well, if you want to buy one for your shop strictly as a quality of life decision, my blessings are with you, I'm actually happy for you.  But some of the comments sound like they are coming from someone who refuses to see other FACTS or can't comprehend them and that gets frustrating.  One of the best production guys in our entire industry has spoken about the pros and cons, and although I'm not even close to that level, I have given a number of facts for and against but those facts against owning one at our shop don't get recognized by most.  It's great for Sam and Mike, it would kill Tony's operation, so that's how I'm looking at it...the good and the bad.  Everyone that owns one has commented on how great they are, and they wouldn't be without one so trust me, I understand the benefits and even though the ROI isn't where I want it to be, we'll likely get one when our screen usage gets a little higher.

With a screen usage of under 40 per day, it's more of a quality of life purchase than ROI, AT OUR SHOP.  The closer you get to that 40 mark, the more it makes sense for our shop to go CTS.  Shops that are using 10-15 screens per day can see a fast ROI, but not our shop, even at 20-30 screens per day.  With our repeat jobs and efficiency at producing screens with our current technology, the numbers aren't as appealing as with some shops.

So to answer your question Brandt, yes and no, no and yes...it's complicated

come on guys..you know you cannot make money with one of those...and why would  you want one?  it doesn't make you go any faster? 

ahahhahahah

I think Mike gets it and sees where are the savings are over film....enjoy and make more money in 2013 than 2012...get get em

sam

And then there are smartass comments like this ^.  I know it sounds like I'm arguing against CTS because I have to respond to comments like these, but I LOVE THE TECHNOLOGY!!!  But it's just not as cut and dried as some people will have you believe.  People think I'm being short sighted when I'm actually looking at the whole picture but people like Sam will never admit that something they did wasn't the greatest thing ever.  DTG?  Anyone???  What about repeat jobs where the film can be used over and over again?  What about the efficiency and throughput of one shop versus another in stencil development?  What about the size of the initial investment and how that plays into one's ROI figures that won't be anywhere near what others will have?  The fact is some shops can do twice as much with the same equipment as others doesn't seem to be understood, but maybe think about Tony's shop a little and that should help you understand.  A CTS helps some shops go much faster because they were incredibly slow to begin with.  Some shops like Mike's love it because their lives have become much easier and production has increased at the same time.  So, a little perspective is in order when discussing this topic and that's what's missing the most.

We can open up Tony's thread to keep from muddying up Mike's.  I appreciate everything Mike has told us and it goes into my bank for future decision making.  There are some people to take advice from and listen to and then there are others where it's best to not listen to.  Some are giving an incredibly biased opinion that has more to do with pride and arrogance than the complete story and others will give you an exact account of what's going on and their experience.

[Socalfmf]

Alan

I have publicly said that DTG was great for us...that was until we grew and decided that we did not want to have that part of our business plan...while we had it and used it, we made good money on it....but I would rather print 500 shirts on the auto vs. 25 on the dtg....

as for the entire process...like Mike said, how much time is a person using waiting for the suck down of the blanket...while that is happening we are exposing screens....and on to the next one...as for film...you have to store it, you have to retrieve it, you have to then put it on the machine and start the process....there are many many savings and I honestly believe if you spent some time in a shop that had one you would see a lot more savings...

but then again I am just a spoiled kids with cool toys...

Sam

[inkman996]

I am pretty set that we will never advance to a CTS till either we completely max out our printing with the one auto we have or we move on to a second auto. As of right now the CTS would not make us any money because it will not bring more printing to us, and as it is we do not print 8 hours a day so the time savings would not help much. I certainly see where it will be beneficial for a shop when they are maxed out or have multiple machines to feed. For now our newest investments are in inks, computers, and a second flash. Which we have done all of so far this year except for the ink mixing system.

[Socalfmf]

Mike, I totally agree with the second flash....I love ours...especially up here where you get the base, red white shirts...you can have that other flash and have it so sharp you can cut your finger between colors...

you going to Foxwoods this week?

[bimmridder]

Alan, you are absolutely right about me saying what I do. I am guilty of that. I used to start every post of mine with, "in my shop". I know I am lucky to have had the chance to go CTS, and it works great in my shop. I spent a lot of times telling folks why it worked for me. I would never try to convince to buy something that isn't right for them.  Here are a few things that make it right for us. Since starting back up after the flood in December of '08, we have produced 12,319 art files. Each of these files is one set up. We do A TON of art. These range from one to ten colors, so I can't really tell you how much film that would be. We do 8-10 set ups per press (3) per shift. (one shift per day only) I really and truly don't believe we could do this without a very good system that consists of CTS and pre registration. Of course there are many other factors in set ups. So just a few reasons it's a perfect fit in my shop. Is it right for you. No. Not right now, maybe never. Is it right for Sam? Only Sam really knows. I know it was an extremely wise investment for us. I'll try to temper my remarks, or better yet bite my tongue. Alan, you had every right to say what you did. I have the highest respect for you and how you do things. Hopefully this apology for my attitude, and brief explanation about what works in my shop does some good. (Alan, I think you still owe me a beer or two, also)

[inkman996]

Alan, you are absolutely right about me saying what I do. I am guilty of that. I used to start every post of mine with, "in my shop". I know I am lucky to have had the chance to go CTS, and it works great in my shop. I spent a lot of times telling folks why it worked for me. I would never try to convince to buy something that isn't right for them.  Here are a few things that make it right for us. Since starting back up after the flood in December of '08, we have produced 12,319 art files. Each of these files is one set up. We do A TON of art. These range from one to ten colors, so I can't really tell you how much film that would be. We do 8-10 set ups per press (3) per shift. (one shift per day only) I really and truly don't believe we could do this without a very good system that consists of CTS and pre registration. Of course there are many other factors in set ups. So just a few reasons it's a perfect fit in my shop. Is it right for you. No. Not right now, maybe never. Is it right for Sam? Only Sam really knows. I know it was an extremely wise investment for us. I'll try to temper my remarks, or better yet bite my tongue. Alan, you had every right to say what you did. I have the highest respect for you and how you do things. Hopefully this apology for my attitude, and brief explanation about what works in my shop does some good. (Alan, I think you still owe me a beer or two, also)

And there above is an excellent example of a shop that can benefit from CTS. Compare your shop to ours and it is night and day, a CTS sitting in our shop would cause us to lose money no matter how you cut it. I would love to hear a person that buys a CTS simply for the quality of work life admit it is not making them a dime, even losing money on the payments, I would eat my hat if that was ever said.

[tonypep]

I have refrained from commenting because I am thoroughly happy for those who are embracing this technology and am watching with interest as it continues to improve. Dave never had the chance to come by but we'll have the discussion soon.
That said our presses are never down waiting for screens. Would a CTS slow us down? Quite possibly. The high speed ones run for around $60K and sorry but thats a hard sell. Not that I have a need but 60K buys me more Emb or several used autos. ROI on that equipment happens almost immediately. My last one more or less than paid off in less than two months and continues to generate more revenue daily. Accounting loves those #s.
Remember as well as we have two pre-print lines that repeat jobs in season happen weekly. Films and sometimes screens are libraried and re-used on the spot. We have zero issues with resolution and others mentioned above. We have two large format exposure units that can bang out 4 auto screens at a clip.
Alans well stated post is worth re-reading. One of the most interesting aspects of our industry is that there are almost infinite business models. Therefore there are equally infinite ways at looking at profitability. Thres more but I wish you all the best with the new toys and again will be keeping an eye on how this is evolving

[screenprintguy]

Tony, you know how much respect most all of us have here for you, but you clearly forget a major factor in equating your shop with a shop like mine. I don't have as many hands on deck as you do. So, with that said, if I can increase productivity with a tool that is in full the same amount as 1 person's annual salary, it's a no brainer for me. If I had 3 or 4 people just in the screen/pre-press/reclaiming how ever we want to categorize it, plus multiple people on presses, in-house artists, ect, it's a whole different ball of wax. Instead we have to be able to compete with shops in surrounding areas with say 10 or more autos and 20+ employees to do all the work for them. We are 4 people doing the work of a 10 person shop. The CTS, in my shop, takes the place of a couple added people without their headaches and calling in, and bla bla bla. I'm sure you can understand. Maybe for your shop, it's not the tool needed, but for us it totally is. Nutmeg Mills aka VF image wear in Tampa, only 40 minutes from us, with their 28 automatic press factory over there saw the need to install I-Image ST, they got the money, but they also see it as a necessary tool as well. I guess it's not for everyone, like an auto, I know some shops that have 6 or more manuals and a ton of guys pulling squeegees when they could have 1 or 2 autos doing the work, being more consistent, and keeping a lower labor rate but they can't seem to get over the hump of spending the dough.

[tonypep]

Actually I didn't forget that factor at all (with utmost respect) My point is there are quite a lot of you who will reap benefits from this as the technology stands right now. I'm just hearing a little bit of "If it works for me then surely it must for you"
Not always sage advice

[Baron265]

I'm pretty sure there's an upgrade in quality (of the product) with CTS. You're not exposing through the glass and the light can't get around the image on the film. Also, if you use CTS with a registration system (like Tri Lock), you eliminate the possibilty of error the film placement  step has.

[inkman996]

Mike, I totally agree with the second flash....I love ours...especially up here where you get the base, red white shirts...you can have that other flash and have it so sharp you can cut your finger between colors...

you going to Foxwoods this week?

No Foxwoods this year, we haven't gone for several years. The quality of the NES show has gone down so drastically. I am still pissed at the last time we went, I got in to a big argument with a Brother rep about their DTG, he was blowing so much smoke up peoples arses and i was contradicting him he got huffy as hell with me. But hey i care more about the people than the corporate power machine, and seriously when  say this guy was BS-ing I mean really really BS-ing. I think he must have worked for Fresner when they were selling TJets lol.

[alan802]

Alan, you are absolutely right about me saying what I do. I am guilty of that. I used to start every post of mine with, "in my shop". I know I am lucky to have had the chance to go CTS, and it works great in my shop. I spent a lot of times telling folks why it worked for me. I would never try to convince to buy something that isn't right for them.  Here are a few things that make it right for us. Since starting back up after the flood in December of '08, we have produced 12,319 art files. Each of these files is one set up. We do A TON of art. These range from one to ten colors, so I can't really tell you how much film that would be. We do 8-10 set ups per press (3) per shift. (one shift per day only) I really and truly don't believe we could do this without a very good system that consists of CTS and pre registration. Of course there are many other factors in set ups. So just a few reasons it's a perfect fit in my shop. Is it right for you. No. Not right now, maybe never. Is it right for Sam? Only Sam really knows. I know it was an extremely wise investment for us. I'll try to temper my remarks, or better yet bite my tongue. Alan, you had every right to say what you did. I have the highest respect for you and how you do things. Hopefully this apology for my attitude, and brief explanation about what works in my shop does some good. (Alan, I think you still owe me a beer or two, also)

I would accept your apology Dave but you don't need to give me one.  My comments need more of an apology than anything you said.  I always will respect your opinions, especially those that regard tools and equipment that I don't own.  It just happens that our shop is more like Tony's in screen throughput so I do lean that direction when it comes to CTS.  But I like new technology, and I love new toys.  I like   I get frustrated sometimes by comments made where there is as much or more evidence to the contrary that some don't seem to recognize.  This next thing is part bragging but all fact, we develop stencils and setup jobs very fast, much faster than average and way faster than any other shop I've been in and that plays a huge role in my decision making.  I should not have said some of the things I did towards Sam and I apologize for that.  I bite my tongue most of the time I see something written that I disagree with and when I finally do respond it's got way more behind it than it should.

[bimmridder]

How about this? If anyone is looking at CTS an wants to know what it did for us, e-mail or call me. Otherwise consider my tongue bitten
(Just trying for a clean break on my part)

[screenprintguy]

Totally got ya Tony! Hey, there are still guys out there, one that I know of for sure, 24 employee shop, who still film outputs with an HP laser printer on 11x17 architect vellum and still to this day tiles almost all of his jobs, he couldn't see that inkjet was better for him, but with that said, he still puts out a sweet product, makes a huge profit margin, employs quite a few families in his small town and has a 48 hour standard turn around. Imagine what he could do if he got rid of a few of those manuals, added another auto and some other up to date pieces of gear, but he is comfy where he is and I can't hate on him for that, he taught me and gave me my start and thinks we were nuts when we bought a 6 head Tajima, and an auto, but everyone is in their own boat, so to say. I know we made the right move, my wife and I both feel that way. She is normally the one to say, dude, NO!! If she didn't we'd probably be out already cause I would have added another auto pre-maturlly, but she would watch me babysit film, grid them, you know the process. Then she really researched this for us as well and said do it. Plus, ha, she got me out of her way and in my own private office with it now, that's just a bonus 

[Socalfmf]

Alan

I am the last one who needs an apology...so no need...we all are passionate about our businesses and this industry...

sam

also Mike...I will keep an eye out for the dtg rep blowing smoke up peoples ass...since I know how and why the work the way they do..