eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)

[GraphicDisorder]

I've done many things around the shop to make things "easier".  DTS can do that no doubt, but we are talking about an investment.  I said earlier if you just want to make your life easier then go for the DTS.  It's a math decision for me, a business decision, not a quality of life decision because my quality of life and the employees is pretty damn good.  I agree with both decisions to buy an auto, why print manually 10 hours a day when you can print automatically for 1 hour a day?  I think we can all agree that buying an auto coming from a manual shop and buying a DTS to make things easier are completely different?  If you are treating them the same then I'll just say I'm sorry you're taking that approach and good luck to ya's.  The money you can make with an auto is astronomically larger than what you can make with a DTS. 

If you can afford one and it makes you happy, who am I to say not to buy one?  If it will yield you the ability to do a few more setups per day and you have the work to fill that extra production then go for it.  Smaller shops with DTS will be the exception and not the rule until the ROI makes sense, but to each their own.

I'm not saying that Mike is making a bad decision in buying one, I'm saying you're not going to get a one year ROI if you pay more than about 15-20K for one and do less than 25-30 screens per day.  So please don't take offense Mike and Brandt because I'm not buying one and I'm outspoken about it.  I like you guys and what you've done, the reason I'm passionate about this is not because of what you guys are saying or buying, has nothing to do with your decision to go DTS.  But you should understand that there are no games or pencil whipping of my numbers and my assessment that the ROI isn't there for our shop and probably not for other shops our size and smaller is not speculative. 

Big shops buy DTS for the ROI, small shops can buy them to make things a little easier and a little faster, no problems with any of that.  If you've got the money, need, want or all of them then buy whichever one you want.  We don't fit into either of those molds and that's the way it is.

No offense taken at all.  I am certain in all of our shops one size doesn't fit all.  We all have different spaces, personalities, overhead, mix, and so on.  Not everything is black and white.  I was only explaining how I look at it for my business (Owner/operator).  It's very simple for me.  When job doesn't get done, largely Shelly and I are still the ones that will end up working late or weekends to get it done.  So if I can cut that BS out a few times a month, then turn that into more work either getting done on time or more work being done period, then it's almost instant gratification for me, my time off is priceless.  Remember I used to work 7 days a week, 12-16hrs a day and did that for years to get where I am.  The 30-50k these DTS machines cost, is just a drop in the bucket of growth to me. 

I am not sold that it will be my next move yet.  But I am sure it will happen someday either way.  I think we can split hairs on stuff like this until blue in the face and its rather pointless without context of each shop. 

[inkman996]

Why is it so hard for someone to just admit the machine makes things easier and stop blowing smoke up peoples arse and saying its making them more money. Unless (Sam) you were turning work away before the CTS then the CTS is not making any more money for you than you made before. The only thing that makes money is sales, unless the machine comes with increased sales voodoo then its BS. Not sure how (Sam) can say he is making more money if anything he is making less because of a new equipment payment. Atleast some people like Homer can admit they would spend the coin for the ease of the process not caring about the cost, unfortunately Homer is mostly an exception. Oh yea and Brandt of course.

[Socalfmf]

Mike...doe you make more printing on a manual or an auto?  hmmm let me guess and auto...do you make more money by exposing screen 60% faster or by using rubylith?  hmmmm

Think what you want to but being able to get more done in a day translates to making more money...it does not matter if it is with a DTS, a new auto, a new whatever...the more you can do in a day the more you make that is simple economics 101...

again Mike..you are right...i guess that is why you guys have a single head embroidery machine and a 1 station manual press right?  didn't think so...you have multiple ones to make money faster

sam

[inkman996]

Very odd answers there Sam, sounds like you are now reaching nightly. Comparing a machine of production to a machine that only performs a very small part of the whole is wrong. I wont explain why you should be able to get it for your self.


Again the machine is not a production machine, it does not make money, money comes from sales or cutting staff etc. A little tape and cost of films does not offset the machine cost. Unless you were turning jobs away before the DTS then yes its all BS.

Why dont you atleast explain your ROI to everyone? Are you basing off the machines MSRP or your actual cost? You traded in the Idot against the purchase correct?

[Socalfmf]

Mike

I have and you guys still do not accept it...the machine is a production machine....again if I can do something 60% faster than before you make more money faster.  again simple economics...

I have laid a majority of it out and you guys cannot see the trees through the forest...

[inkman996]

Yes Sam it helps make money a tiny tiny bit faster, it does not make your auto print faster, your folder fold faster etc, but yes it helps make the current amount of money a tad bit faster. But more importantly does it make more money? Again unless you turned work away previously then he same amount of money is coming, albeit its made faster its not made more.

[ebscreen]

Although making money faster could make you more money (IE spending more time on sales) it doesn't always
work out that way. I find that the more time I have to do other things the more time I spend fishing! Or at
least Not Working...

Also, I do not think that the increase in production speed would be anywhere even near say a second auto,
or even another employee, or a better mixing system, or more press carts/organization, etc.

That said, if I had a janky I-DOT that M&R would take on trade I'd do it in a heartbeat. Though I'd
see about a little Diamondback or Sportsman first if I had the space. But I'd be pretty sure
to not end up with a janky I-DOT in the first place.

[mk162]

You guys are missing something, the amount of money is one thing, the VELOCITY of money is another.  Sam has cut expenses, making him more money, but he has also increased the velocity of money.

and eb is right, I wouldn't have put the idot in my shop, the name is too close to idiot.

[GraphicDisorder]

This conversation is getting comical.  Having a second auto for example wouldn't do much good if you couldn't feed it screens.  So you'd need either twice the screen staff or some how do screens quicker.... DTS would make sense very quickly there. 

Some of you get to detailed in your break down of the process.  If the whole process from customer purchase to customer holding finished product is faster, then anything you do to make your process faster actually makes you money.  It may be the same money, but you made it faster.  Please tell me, how is making money faster bad?  If you can make money faster, your likely to find time to make more work come through the door.  You see where this is going.

[inkman996]

This conversation is getting comical.  Having a second auto for example wouldn't do much good if you couldn't feed it screens.  So you'd need either twice the screen staff or some how do screens quicker.... DTS would make sense very quickly there. 

Some of you get to detailed in your break down of the process.  If the whole process from customer purchase to customer holding finished product is faster, then anything you do to make your process faster actually makes you money.  It may be the same money, but you made it faster.  Please tell me, how is making money faster bad?  If you can make money faster, your likely to find time to make more work come through the door.  You see where this is going.

Brandt not sure what world you live on or Sam for that matter but we are talking about a machine that images a screen and cuts expo time down some, it is not making a lot of time at all in the whole scheme of themes. If you had to print a 10k order the DTS would only shave a minute off that really long run, thats what some of us see and others do not. Some of us see that the machine is awesome but its expensive and it does not make any real money, when your shop is at capacity then sure it will free up some valuable time, if your one auto it will be minute, if your ten autos then it could start realizing serious numbers. Us personaly being a production type place I would prefer another press and hook up with bigger brokers and bigger universities, its available,  a DTS would not get us that kind of work but a second auto sure would.

[ebscreen]

DING DING DING DING!

You will make more money with a second press than you will with a DTS. No duh.
Film/screens has never been a bottleneck around here, yet.

I am not against the technology, I think they are awesome. I would not even look at
one without having several presses though.

[screenprintguy]

My I-Image will be here on the 29th, woooooop!!! I'll let ya'll know how it works out for us.

[CastleKing]

Yes Sam it helps make money a tiny tiny bit faster, it does not make your auto print faster, your folder fold faster etc, but yes it helps make the current amount of money a tad bit faster. But more importantly does it make more money? Again unless you turned work away previously then he same amount of money is coming, albeit its made faster its not made more.

I have to side with Sam on this one. As you look at the printing process as a whole, wherever you improve efficiencies, the result will be cost savings. This can be in the form of ink, labor, film etc. The point I made earlier in the post is that we have radically improved our set-up times with the I-Screen. With all of the time saved on our set-ups, we are able to print more each day on each of our presses thus making more revenue each and every day.

I had an M&R rep out about 2 weeks ago, we did a 3 color (tight registration) set-up on darks in 4 minutes that was dead on the money with registration. We taped up reg marks and were printing in under 6 minutes. I'll get the video link and post it to illustrate the time savings.

As a contract print shop, downtime is a killer of profit. So maybe this machine doesn't actually produce the print but it certainly does support the process and increases efficiencies in the process as a whole.

[alan802]

Ok Sam, why don't you buy a faster auto if you want to produce things 60% faster?  And no, you haven't laid out anything, you are about as vague as it gets when explaining these simple economics you speak of.  I remember you said you would lay it all out for us then you came up with some lame excuse like we don't deserve to see the numbers and you had the holy grail and weren't sharing it.  Do you really think you have something so secret and powerful that some of us don't know about?  I think Gilligan pissed you off and you told us you were taking your DTS football and going home and none of us were worthy of seeing those wizardly numbers.  That's fine, they are yours to do with whatever way you see fit, but yet you think we should all buy what little your saying just because you're saying it?  Nah, I'll stick to what I know for sure rather than numbers that really don't make much sense.

You say you have increased your production capabilities by 60% by adding a DTS?  Wow, I ain't gonna ask how thats possible because I know the only answer and it's not good.  That's the second stat I just have to shake my head at and wonder WTF.  If we could increase our production capacity by 60%, get an 11 month ROI on a $35K machine I'd probably call Rich tomorrow and get the ball rolling.

I'm making this an ROI argument because there is no argument from me that DTS is easier, it's simply slower on repeat jobs and our shop would gain minutes a day if all we did was new jobs and with DTS over film.  We might get one more 4/4 job done per 3 or 4 days for $40K investment...no thanks.  I'd upgrade my auto's indexer speed or figure out how to print faster for very little investment if I wanted to gain a few jobs per week in production capability.  You want to get more done?  Use better squeegee blades and make better choices on mesh before you add a DTS to get more done.  Don't double stroke, don't do revolver mode, I could go on and on without spending 40K. 

And what Mike is saying is spot on, production capacity is not the same as production need.  If you're working 7 days a week, 10-12 hours a day then you need to do something about that.  It goes back to the old MHM argument that Sonny used to make.  Theoretically you can setup 10 more jobs per week on the MHM versus the competition and if you made $500 per job you'll be making 260K more per year...ok, that sounds great, where do I get those extra 10 jobs per week?  We're not turning work away, we are slammed but we find a way to get it done in 40 hours because of the way we operate.  We are flexible, very resilient and cross trained to do whatever needs to be done.  Turning a job around quickly is not just about DTS versus film, press speed and single stroke versus double, there is a lot that goes into it and job throughput doesn't equate to success, it's just one of many variables.  We are one of the fastest one auto shops around, but if our sales staff doesn't do their jobs, we're done. 

We've always increased production as we needed to, however we needed to do it, not increased production then cross our fingers that we will get the business to fullfill the gap.  I know shops that have increased their production capacity without truly needing it and it's a good way to hurt yourself.  Some shops have done it and the business has come, but it didn't happen that way without reason and work.  I hear people saying to "just buy the auto, the work will come", sounds simple but you have to work for it.  We have never got a job because a customer heard we got a new automatic that prints faster than the old one.

This conversation is getting comical.  Having a second auto for example wouldn't do much good if you couldn't feed it screens.  So you'd need either twice the screen staff or some how do screens quicker.... DTS would make sense very quickly there. 

What about feeding it jobs?  Can Sam output 80 screens in 80 minutes with his new tool?  Tony does, with film.  80 screens will fill two autos and hundreds of multi auto print shops feed the presses with film processed screens every day.  Can we at least agree that Tony's shop couldn't develop 80 screens in 80 minutes if he had a DTS?  He'd need at least 2, maybe 3 of them.  It does make sense very quickly once you get into many screens per day and you can't develop a screen as quickly as Tony's guys, but then again, this goes back to smaller shops and ROI for me.  Why would you buy a DTS to do screens quicker when you do a much poorer job in screen development than the average shop?  Just get better at screen development and be like Tony's guys.  If I can expose 2 screens to our competitions one screen, doesn't mean they need to go out and buy a DTS, that's all I'm saying.

What comes first, the chicken or the egg, the second auto or the DTS?  It's a good question and I really don't know what I'd buy first...probably leaning DTS but it's not easy.

Such a good thread here, love the DTS talk.

And Castle, those are very good setup times, how much longer were they before DTS?  That's what matters the most.  If a shop that uses film can set up a 3 color job and be printing in 6 minutes...that's what I'm screaming.  Those are very reasonable numbers for us.  You see, that's where my argument comes from.  If it took us 20 minutes to set up a 3 color job then hell yeah, DTS could save us 14 minutes PER SETUP, times 10-16 setups per day around here, no brainer then.  DTS all the way if those were our numbers.

[inkman996]

Yes Sam it helps make money a tiny tiny bit faster, it does not make your auto print faster, your folder fold faster etc, but yes it helps make the current amount of money a tad bit faster. But more importantly does it make more money? Again unless you turned work away previously then he same amount of money is coming, albeit its made faster its not made more.

I have to side with Sam on this one. As you look at the printing process as a whole, wherever you improve efficiencies, the result will be cost savings. This can be in the form of ink, labor, film etc. The point I made earlier in the post is that we have radically improved our set-up times with the I-Screen. With all of the time saved on our set-ups, we are able to print more each day on each of our presses thus making more revenue each and every day.

I had an M&R rep out about 2 weeks ago, we did a 3 color (tight registration) set-up on darks in 4 minutes that was dead on the money with registration. We taped up reg marks and were printing in under 6 minutes. I'll get the video link and post it to illustrate the time savings.

As a contract print shop, downtime is a killer of profit. So maybe this machine doesn't actually produce the print but it certainly does support the process and increases efficiencies in the process as a whole.

Castle you run a large very efficient full bore shop, it's comparing apples to oranges.