eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)

[ebscreen]

I have frequently seen lightly used auto coaters and reclaimers for sale at a fraction of new price. That says enough for me about that. Some things you just can't replace a human with.

Also, regarding multiple jobs setup on one auto. Great idea in theory, but rarely works out in practice, usually due to underbase, flash, pallet sizes, etc. Having a press than can index both directions helps with this quite a bit, but the day we have nothing but 1 color on white jobs to run is a long time coming....

[inkman996]

Company I worked at previously had an auto coater, occasionally the owner would force us to use it but we always ended up stuffing it In a corner unused. As tony said its simply to slow, and did not do anything great compared to human technique. On the flip side we also had a gizmo, sorry no name to go with it that allowed you to place the screen it it, coat and hit a foot pedal, the screen would turn. Great for people coating solo.

[Flying Colors]

When running the numbers for our ROI on the DTS, like many others, we ran the numbers plenty of times. Each time we calculated the ROI we changed the variables depending on the circumstances and we would sway each figure from an aggressive standpoint to a conservative standpoint; as well as trying to account for peaks and valleys for screen usage during busier and slow times for business.

We ended up between 19-27 months depending on how conservative/aggressive we were inputting the numbers. The amount of screens we do per day is around 75. For our shop I started considering DTS once we got over 50 screens because the ROI started to get attractive.

The first time we looked at DTS, roughly 18 months ago, it was a decision to buy another auto or DTS. At the time we had two autos and really needed more production. Since we could not afford both, we felt that getting the third auto would be the best way to achieve our goal of expanding capacity. The main reason was with two autos and a DTS we could push out an extra job or two per day per machine due to the increased set up times BUT we would be able to ship MORE than 2-4 jobs per day with another auto.

Now, 18 months later we faced the same decision. This time we could push out 3-6 extra jobs per day with a DTS due to increased set up times which is comparable to what we could do with another auto. As some have mentioned before if you do not have the work then what is the point. Well, even if you do not have the work and your staff works 32 hours a week instead of 40 hours than you have a significant savings there. However, we were fortunate enough to fill that void and keep people working. In the couple of months prior to buying a DTS we farmed out a little over 6k in printing so we had the backlog to do it.

One thing that I do not know was touched on in this thread but it extremely important to us is Cash Flow. About 85% of our customers get some sort of terms for payment other than COD. The payment terms range from 10 days to 30 days. Since we are contract, our biggest expense is obviously labor. We are paying employees every two weeks but not getting paid from customers until 30 days. This can and does create times of the year where we go through major cash shortages. I know it may not seem like it, but trust me our CPA convinced me one day in his office with his cash flow models, in our situation getting paid even 2-3 days quicker on average makes a HUGE difference in terms of cash on hand.

Now if setups were the only time/money savings available then we could have accomplished the above for much less than what we paid for the DTS. However, that is where other incremental savings come into play. But, once again those savings did not add up to a point of serious consideration until we reached the 50 screen per day threshold.

It is possible that our graphic art department was not as efficient as others but we saw a good chunk of savings from that department. It is my belief that the reason we saw savings from the art room is due to the vast majority of our jobs are new. I can definitely see how if most of your jobs were reruns you can just pull film and rock and roll to the exposure room. Now, our artists were not sitting around watching films print but just like when it came to production on the autos each artist has been able to proof more jobs than before. They are not proofing double the amount of jobs but when you have 4 artists and each one can do a little more per day then it adds up. The reason they can do a little more per day is due to the ease of use from the RIP.

The RIP that we got with the DTS, Xitron, is great. I was very concerned with not having films to look at before imaging, exposing, and setting up a sim process job. However, the preview function with Xitron is good. We can preview each color separately, zoom in, and make sure nothing was lost in translation while it ripped the file. The RIP is very detailed but easy to use at the same time. You just drag the file into the RIP program and drop it into the workflow you want. (The workflow determines the lpi and other settings you have that can effect how the file is outputted) I am not trying to sell anyone that using the RIP is twice as fast as printing film because it is not, but it is a little more efficient for our art guys.

I think that is it but if I missed anything or did not explain it well enough fire some questions my way and I would love to have a conversation about it.


Mark

[inkbrigade]

I think that is it but if I missed anything or did not explain it well enough fire some questions my way and I would love to have a conversation about it.


Mark

What kind of cts did you end up getting and has it made setups faster?

What percentage of jobs need no micro compared to what you use to do?

[inkman996]

Mark thanks for a great review.

It is refreshing to hear from a shop that is at a higher capacity than many of us and gave a more realistic sounding ROI based even off his quantity of printing. Sorry Sam 11 month ROI for your production is suspect.

As mark said he is 50 plus screens in a day, but the most important he said by far is back logging work, that's a huge determiner for an expensive machine.

Mark you also touched on another important issue which I think separates a lot of us in this business and that is employee hours. Some shops like SAMs are run more rigid with more emphasis on the owners pocket and less on the employees, here at my company we are much like a family, the owners main focus is not only his financial well being but also ours. We work wether there is anything to do or not, if power is out we go home but still get paid, basically we are all salaried except new employees or part timers. So for us we would never look for equipment that will cut someone's hours. I know I am not the owner so I can't assume who here as owners operate the same way but I would suspect some do.

I got another question about the machines, for those that own one. How often if ever is their a mistake in the RIP? I am curious because our film rip very rarely makes a mistake so I would assume the DTS RIPS are pretty solid as well.

[alan802]

When running the numbers for our ROI on the DTS, like many others, we ran the numbers plenty of times. Each time we calculated the ROI we changed the variables depending on the circumstances and we would sway each figure from an aggressive standpoint to a conservative standpoint; as well as trying to account for peaks and valleys for screen usage during busier and slow times for business.

We ended up between 19-27 months depending on how conservative/aggressive we were inputting the numbers. The amount of screens we do per day is around 75. For our shop I started considering DTS once we got over 50 screens because the ROI started to get attractive.

The first time we looked at DTS, roughly 18 months ago, it was a decision to buy another auto or DTS. At the time we had two autos and really needed more production. Since we could not afford both, we felt that getting the third auto would be the best way to achieve our goal of expanding capacity. The main reason was with two autos and a DTS we could push out an extra job or two per day per machine due to the increased set up times BUT we would be able to ship MORE than 2-4 jobs per day with another auto.

Now, 18 months later we faced the same decision. This time we could push out 3-6 extra jobs per day with a DTS due to increased set up times which is comparable to what we could do with another auto. As some have mentioned before if you do not have the work then what is the point. Well, even if you do not have the work and your staff works 32 hours a week instead of 40 hours than you have a significant savings there. However, we were fortunate enough to fill that void and keep people working. In the couple of months prior to buying a DTS we farmed out a little over 6k in printing so we had the backlog to do it.

One thing that I do not know was touched on in this thread but it extremely important to us is Cash Flow. About 85% of our customers get some sort of terms for payment other than COD. The payment terms range from 10 days to 30 days. Since we are contract, our biggest expense is obviously labor. We are paying employees every two weeks but not getting paid from customers until 30 days. This can and does create times of the year where we go through major cash shortages. I know it may not seem like it, but trust me our CPA convinced me one day in his office with his cash flow models, in our situation getting paid even 2-3 days quicker on average makes a HUGE difference in terms of cash on hand.

Now if setups were the only time/money savings available then we could have accomplished the above for much less than what we paid for the DTS. However, that is where other incremental savings come into play. But, once again those savings did not add up to a point of serious consideration until we reached the 50 screen per day threshold.

It is possible that our graphic art department was not as efficient as others but we saw a good chunk of savings from that department. It is my belief that the reason we saw savings from the art room is due to the vast majority of our jobs are new. I can definitely see how if most of your jobs were reruns you can just pull film and rock and roll to the exposure room. Now, our artists were not sitting around watching films print but just like when it came to production on the autos each artist has been able to proof more jobs than before. They are not proofing double the amount of jobs but when you have 4 artists and each one can do a little more per day then it adds up. The reason they can do a little more per day is due to the ease of use from the RIP.

The RIP that we got with the DTS, Xitron, is great. I was very concerned with not having films to look at before imaging, exposing, and setting up a sim process job. However, the preview function with Xitron is good. We can preview each color separately, zoom in, and make sure nothing was lost in translation while it ripped the file. The RIP is very detailed but easy to use at the same time. You just drag the file into the RIP program and drop it into the workflow you want. (The workflow determines the lpi and other settings you have that can effect how the file is outputted) I am not trying to sell anyone that using the RIP is twice as fast as printing film because it is not, but it is a little more efficient for our art guys.

I think that is it but if I missed anything or did not explain it well enough fire some questions my way and I would love to have a conversation about it.


Mark

Absolute kickass post Mark.  We must be using the same equations and numbers for figuring ROI, because the numbers you posted were so close to what I got that I'm wondering if you stole my notebook .  I took conservative numbers, ridiculous numbers, and everything in between.  I kept getting around that 40-50 screen/day mark with our current averages and based on repeats or new jobs the ROI tilted from looking fantastic to 48-60 months and beyond.  The ROI calculator I use is extremely detailed and is meant to put in ALL the equipment and literally everything you could think of that costs the shop money and time.  I need to simplify it a little so it doesn't look like the chinese alphabet but it works like it is, it's just a mess to look at.

Mark, did you get the Acti ScreenMaker Pro Legend 2800?

[Printficient]

There is a shop in Iowa that does 800-1200 screens a day in a 20 hour day.  They have an auto coater and 2 Kiwo I jets.  They also have an automatic reclaim machine.  They shoot 6 screens at a time and are the most efficient shop I have ever seen as they do NOT have a scrap of paper anywhere in the shop.  Sam, you will be glad to know that they have 10,000 roller frames.

[inkbrigade]

There is a shop in Iowa that does 800-1200 screens a day in a 20 hour day.  They have an auto coater and 2 Kiwo I jets.  They also have an automatic reclaim machine.  They shoot 6 screens at a time and are the most efficient shop I have ever seen as they do NOT have a scrap of paper anywhere in the shop.  Sam, you will be glad to know that they have 10,000 roller frames.

God how would you even manage a shop like that?

[Gilligan]

Brandt, first step to speeding up your film to screen process is get that tri-lock off the exposure unit.

Build a FPU like Alan and others have.  Even doing it Alan's old way would be faster as it eliminates the carrier sheets.

[Mr Tees!!]

...OK,  I cant stand this anymore. I will have something cool to show you all concerning your TriLoc in about six weeks when the custom parts get here. Stay Tuned!... !

[GraphicDisorder]

Brandt, first step to speeding up your film to screen process is get that tri-lock off the exposure unit.

Build a FPU like Alan and others have.  Even doing it Alan's old way would be faster as it eliminates the carrier sheets.

Haven't had time to even consider it.  Barely get day off around here. 

[Gilligan]

It's one of those work on your business not in your business things.

Basically sharpening your axe to be more efficient.

[BorisB]

Does anyone know the gap between the 4800's printhead nozzles and the substrate?  I'm not sure where I stand on that 1/4" distance.  I'm thinking that nobody's screens would be warped any further than 1/16" and stencil thickness for anything we might be printing on textiles wouldn't be over 200-300 microns which is about 4-6 human hairs stacked on top of each other.  The engineers who developed the DTS machines obviously know more about that distance and what is sufficient and safe that will give the quality we are looking for.  I would think they could shrink that down but I don't have the knowledge to debate it or actually give an answer as to how/why.

So I just went and looked at the "tool" that we use to set the print head height on our machine. I DO NOT have a pair of micrometers here so I cannot give an exact dimension but the distance is actually much much less then 1/4". That was just off the top of my head. Here's a picture of the plate tool that we use to set that and it's a bit hard to see but the distance is actually only about 1/16th of an inch. I was way off with the 1/4" but just to set the record straight it's only about 1/16th..... Since the screen cannot sit higher then the clamps in the dts unit the head has very little chance to ever touch anything.


Just wanted to clear this up

Producer of our CTS/DTS unit instructed us to have printhead at distance from screen at 1.2 to 1.6mm.


Boris

[BorisB]

I got another question about the machines, for those that own one. How often if ever is their a mistake in the RIP? I am curious because our film rip very rarely makes a mistake so I would assume the DTS RIPS are pretty solid as well.

I can compare Harlequin RIP which we used with Imagesetter and ColorGate which we use with DTS. Harlequin failed more often with vector images containing 20.000 objects and more. And this is only situations we face that ColorGate RIP fails. But it shows you in preview if you are careful to check. We mostly do spot this.

Boris

[BorisB]

M&Rs I-Screen.

Does anybody know which printer/printhead is it using?


Boris