eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)

[JBLUE]

What about what Pierre brought up?  I know by looking at the specs they should do higher lpi and resolution versus film, but Pierre has seen one up close and says the halftones are not what he gets on film.  That's not as big of a deal for some of us, but it's just one more reason to think about it.

From my experience we are getting a BETTER dot with our DTS than printing film. I did a comparison the very first day we got the dts hooked up comparing our Epson 4800 using Accurip to our lawson dts unit. We have since calibrated the dot to be better on our machine so I'm confident to say our dts can print a better dot.

I put my loupe up to the dot and took a photo with my iphone so the quality isn't great but you should be able to see the difference.

The first picture here is our epson 4800 using accurip.... Note the noise around each dot



This picture here is our lawson dts using the colorprint rip.




Based on our experience and what I saw castleking post yesterday I would say this technology can print a better dot but I'm sure we can debate that as well hahahaha

Pierre and I just compared dots lat week. His are cleaner that both of those pics. He has his rip dialed in pretty well. At the end of the day if you want a great quality dot you still cannot beat an image setter.

[DannyGruninger]

Jblue, I agree you can get really great results with an imagesetter. Like I said about that dot photo it was the first thing we printed after basically plugging the machine in the wall. We now have a much better dot, when I get time I'll do another photo. RIP software IMO has the biggest effect on dot quality. I'm still too new with the dts to give a fair opinion on this but after seeing the print castle posted knowing he uses dts I would say dot quality is on par with amazing quality and is a non issue.

[JBLUE]

That would be cool to check out a pic. Thanks in advance for sharing. I am curious to see the dot difference. Are you running the same RIP as when you started?

[BorisB]

Jblue, I agree you can get really great results with an imagesetter. Like I said about that dot photo it was the first thing we printed after basically plugging the machine in the wall. We now have a much better dot, when I get time I'll do another photo. RIP software IMO has the biggest effect on dot quality. I'm still too new with the dts to give a fair opinion on this but after seeing the print castle posted knowing he uses dts I would say dot quality is on par with amazing quality and is a non issue.

We went from imagesetter to DTS. We cannot get same quality, actually 85lpi is useless on our DTS unit. For most of jobs there is no difference but for critical jobs we have problems. Finetuning is far more difficult than with film. You need to go to final print on shirt to see what you got. Danny compared printouts on paper which doesn't tell much about quality of print on emulsion. Dot gain is different, is coated screen always having same & very low Rz? We all admired prints by CastleKing so it's possible. I just want to say, you have more variables to control for HQ with DTS than with film from Imagesetter.

I already wanted to ask CastleKing how step was their path to get great screens from DTS?

Tony, yours "just for giggles" created one greatest threads ever. Thank you! I would love to buy a beer, but will most likely never see you. Is there online service? Like for sending flowers? Sending sixpack to somebody?

Boris

[JBLUE]

I would love to see the results from someone that is using a Wasatch RIP with one of these.

[tonypep]

Jblue, I agree you can get really great results with an imagesetter. Like I said about that dot photo it was the first thing we printed after basically plugging the machine in the wall. We now have a much better dot, when I get time I'll do another photo. RIP software IMO has the biggest effect on dot quality. I'm still too new with the dts to give a fair opinion on this but after seeing the print castle posted knowing he uses dts I would say dot quality is on par with amazing quality and is a non issue.

We went from imagesetter to DTS. We cannot get same quality, actually 85lpi is useless on our DTS unit. For most of jobs there is no difference but for critical jobs we have problems. Finetuning is far more difficult than with film. You need to go to final print on shirt to see what you got. Danny compared printouts on paper which doesn't tell much about quality of print on emulsion. Dot gain is different, is coated screen always having same & very low Rz? We all admired prints by CastleKing so it's possible. I just want to say, you have more variables to control for HQ with DTS than with film from Imagesetter.

I already wanted to ask CastleKing how step was their path to get great screens from DTS?

Tony, yours "just for giggles" created one greatest threads ever. Thank you! I would love to buy a beer, but will most likely never see you. Is there online service? Like for sending flowers? Sending sixpack to somebody?

Boris

No need Boris but thanks. I was merely being pensive on the subject. Performing that task got me to musing that was all. It appears that some of us are quite polarized on this while others are more open minded. Nothing wrong with either. I often raise an eyebrow when hearing sales reps rattle on about how it's the way of the future. It surely is I'll wager. Ready for prime time? For some yes for others perhaps not quite yet. Most of us can site new technology that has fallen by the wayside while others that forged the future. Seems like not too long ago there weren't any computers in the Art department at all.
In the end it has to fit to your current capacities, exhibit realistic ROI in a timely fashion, and show real savings in time, labor, and raw materials; while at the same time improving quality. Thats a large challenge. To take your factories individual needs, financial positon, and future growth plans out of the equation can lead one down a slippery slope. Which is what has lead this to become a sometimes passionate discussion. It's what TSB is all about.

[mk162]

Gilligan, can I have $400?  I am still buying tape and if you could subsidize that for me, I would really appreciate it.

[inkman996]

I can remember being told every shop in the world will own an imagesetter because that was the future and if you didnt get one you would fail. Thi was back when image setters cost a small fortune and the rolls cost another small fortune.

[Gilligan]

Gilligan, can I have $400?  I am still buying tape and if you could subsidize that for me, I would really appreciate it.

You know the problem there right?  I just can't help you be more hypocritical than you already are.


It has been said that it's because of my "newness" in this business that they don't feel like I should be opening my mouth.

Problem is, sometimes you just can smell BS no matter what.  Just like if Sam heard some 10 year vet pilot telling some bogus story as fact.  He'd probably speak up and say "that doesn't make sense".  Who would be the jerk there?  The guy trying to stretch the truth or the guy that simply steps up and says "your math isn't adding up."?

[alan802]

So for context tell us soup to nuts from order taking to art to screens to set up to print to tear down to reclaim who does what in your shop.  Use names of your employees or person 1 person 2, person 3.  Get detailed like person one will help do x when not doing y, y is the job they do 85% of the day.   

Maybe we all would do a little good to understand how each run from start to finish.  I suspect a lot more people are involved in a operation like several here and it may be really difficult to understand the ultra small shops like mine and others here.   

Our artist, who is pretty badass as far as artists go outputs film days ahead of when the job is due (usually), we have an envelope that the film goes into with a design number and a proof printout attached to the front for the printer to use as a guide, while he also matches the printout of what the shirt is supposed to look like to the production spec sheet and if those two match, there is a 99.99% chance the job is correct to print.  I take the envelope out back and my screen tech is new here, but with plenty of experience but she still leans on me to give her the correct mesh counts to use.  I prefer it that way since my decision will keep us from having to double stroke anything or pfpf an underbase or whatever it may be that slows shops down.  She pulls the film out, doesn't QC it because it's always right, grabs the screen that's 10' away from the FPU and puts the screen in the FPU, takes about 15-20 seconds to tape the film perfectly with the grid, two images per screen usually, then it goes on the exposure unit.  We try to group like mesh counts and like stencil thicknesses on the exposure unit so we can burn two screens at a time.  30-90 seconds later she's developing stencils.  If I'm out there we can blow through screens quickly, almost as fast as Tony, but she's really good at multitasking and having screens under the light while she's spraying the stencil out of screens that just came off the exposure.  You can get into a groove and knock out 10 screens in 30 minutes by yourself, 15 minutes if my rover helps her.  Rover lays out shirts, double checks the shirts are right (style, color, etc.) and quantities are right, cleans squeegees and floodbars, helps put pallet tape on & off the auto, helps break down the auto after larger jobs, helps expose screens, he's starting to help detape and reclaim screens, and he's also getting pretty good at coating screens and helping the screen tech if she needs it, which isn't very often.  My rover also knows how to run an embroidery machine so he does spend several days in the embroidery department a week, so he's probably got 25 hours dedicated to me and 15 in embroidery.  We are doing anywhere from 5-8 jobs a day on average. I think right now we are averaging 18 screens per day, 2 images per screen but Sept and Oct we were around a 22 average per day screen usage.  Most jobs are 3-4 colors on darks, at least 3-4 6+ color jobs per week, and sometimes we have prints that are too large to gang images on screens so our screen usage varies quite a bit from day to day.  There are days we might go through 10 screens a day, some 30 a day. My screen tech spends time reclaiming those screens just off the press so we don't have screens laying around for days at a time, they are reclaimed quickly.  Taking care of 20 screens a day as a screen tech isn't a full time job, but there is very little downtime for her or the rover and it's my job to make sure they always have something to do.  We used to have downtime to clean the shop on Friday afternoons but those days are gone it looks like, maybe we'll have some chances this winter to do that, maybe not.

My printer pretty much has the screens brought to him, taped up by the screen tech or my rover, rarely any pinhole issues to worry with but we do check for them anyway.  My printer is setting up and tearing down jobs and complaining or bitching about something.  He's a handful and he does have downtime since setups go pretty quickly and goes at a decent pace.  He's not as fast at setups or teardowns as I was but he'll do just fine for what we're doing.  He's a good printer, not a great printer yet but he's catching on and learning and growing now.  He used to not want to change or do anything different but he gets it now, for the most part.  Our average run is around 144 pieces right now and very rarely do we have a one sided job.  We are doing 10-20 setups per day, it varies greatly from day to day.  Occasionally he's cleaning sq. and fb's but usually someone else does that.   

I still spend time out there, maybe a couple hours a day to sometimes 8 hours a day depending on screen inventory and if we have a rough day of tough jobs ahead.  I have a bunch of newmans without mesh so I mesh up a few screens per day (maybe, sometimes, ok, maybe a few a week), manage inventory on supplies and help Carlos set up tough jobs but for the most part I'm helping the sales department and anyone else that might need something done.  I'll clean the damn toilets if they are dirty, I'll order embroidery supplies or talk to sales reps, I basically do anything that needs to be done that others aren't able to do or don't want to do.  About 50% of my time is dedicated to running the screen printing shop and 40% of my time is for the shop overall and about 10% of my day is spent here and getting things ready for the monthly classes I teach.  I also spend a bit of time answering emails from former students or future students, people email me about what manual press they think they should by, I talk to some of you guys on the phone or text, I'll help anyone that comes to me for anything, which is usually a few times a week.  I'll also spend time with industry veterans and learning anything I can about anything they want to talk to me about.  That alone takes up an hour or two of my week.

I probably missed a few things or didn't explain it very good but that's pretty much what everyone in the building does.  I know we could cut my rover out completely but since we got him, it's pretty nice having him around, I think we'll keep him.  He's just a bonus and things are good so we can afford to make things easier on us than they have been in the past with just 2 full timers out back and me.

[mk162]

gilligan, I know, I was just looking for a few bucks for the holidays.

[Gilligan]

That's pretty much how I saw things going, but he didn't have a screen tech at the time so he was pretty much doing that role.  He had me show up when he knew he would have a slow couple of days so he wasn't tied up too much and could spend time showing us what's up.

Brandt, one thing to remember is that they have a FULL embroidery department in the neighboring building... Alan's people deal with mostly with screen printing full time (other than the afore mentioned rover).

And the embroidery side was blowing and going every time we looked in on them, at least three 12 head machines were running at all times when I was there and they had a couple of other machines of similar size around as well.

[studog]

pffft... I once did eighty push ups in eight days.

I did 8 push ups in 80 days.

[GraphicDisorder]

So for context tell us soup to nuts from order taking to art to screens to set up to print to tear down to reclaim who does what in your shop.  Use names of your employees or person 1 person 2, person 3.  Get detailed like person one will help do x when not doing y, y is the job they do 85% of the day.   

Maybe we all would do a little good to understand how each run from start to finish.  I suspect a lot more people are involved in a operation like several here and it may be really difficult to understand the ultra small shops like mine and others here.   

Our artist, who is pretty badass as far as artists go outputs film days ahead of when the job is due (usually), we have an envelope that the film goes into with a design number and a proof printout attached to the front for the printer to use as a guide, while he also matches the printout of what the shirt is supposed to look like to the production spec sheet and if those two match, there is a 99.99% chance the job is correct to print.  I take the envelope out back and my screen tech is new here, but with plenty of experience but she still leans on me to give her the correct mesh counts to use.  I prefer it that way since my decision will keep us from having to double stroke anything or pfpf an underbase or whatever it may be that slows shops down.  She pulls the film out, doesn't QC it because it's always right, grabs the screen that's 10' away from the FPU and puts the screen in the FPU, takes about 15-20 seconds to tape the film perfectly with the grid, two images per screen usually, then it goes on the exposure unit.  We try to group like mesh counts and like stencil thicknesses on the exposure unit so we can burn two screens at a time.  30-90 seconds later she's developing stencils.  If I'm out there we can blow through screens quickly, almost as fast as Tony, but she's really good at multitasking and having screens under the light while she's spraying the stencil out of screens that just came off the exposure.  You can get into a groove and knock out 10 screens in 30 minutes by yourself, 15 minutes if my rover helps her.  Rover lays out shirts, double checks the shirts are right (style, color, etc.) and quantities are right, cleans squeegees and floodbars, helps put pallet tape on & off the auto, helps break down the auto after larger jobs, helps expose screens, he's starting to help detape and reclaim screens, and he's also getting pretty good at coating screens and helping the screen tech if she needs it, which isn't very often.  My rover also knows how to run an embroidery machine so he does spend several days in the embroidery department a week, so he's probably got 25 hours dedicated to me and 15 in embroidery.  We are doing anywhere from 5-8 jobs a day on average. I think right now we are averaging 18 screens per day, 2 images per screen but Sept and Oct we were around a 22 average per day screen usage.  Most jobs are 3-4 colors on darks, at least 3-4 6+ color jobs per week, and sometimes we have prints that are too large to gang images on screens so our screen usage varies quite a bit from day to day.  There are days we might go through 10 screens a day, some 30 a day. My screen tech spends time reclaiming those screens just off the press so we don't have screens laying around for days at a time, they are reclaimed quickly.  Taking care of 20 screens a day as a screen tech isn't a full time job, but there is very little downtime for her or the rover and it's my job to make sure they always have something to do.  We used to have downtime to clean the shop on Friday afternoons but those days are gone it looks like, maybe we'll have some chances this winter to do that, maybe not.

My printer pretty much has the screens brought to him, taped up by the screen tech or my rover, rarely any pinhole issues to worry with but we do check for them anyway.  My printer is setting up and tearing down jobs and complaining or bitching about something.  He's a handful and he does have downtime since setups go pretty quickly and goes at a decent pace.  He's not as fast at setups or teardowns as I was but he'll do just fine for what we're doing.  He's a good printer, not a great printer yet but he's catching on and learning and growing now.  He used to not want to change or do anything different but he gets it now, for the most part.  Our average run is around 144 pieces right now and very rarely do we have a one sided job.  We are doing 10-20 setups per day, it varies greatly from day to day.  Occasionally he's cleaning sq. and fb's but usually someone else does that.   

I still spend time out there, maybe a couple hours a day to sometimes 8 hours a day depending on screen inventory and if we have a rough day of tough jobs ahead.  I have a bunch of newmans without mesh so I mesh up a few screens per day (maybe, sometimes, ok, maybe a few a week), manage inventory on supplies and help Carlos set up tough jobs but for the most part I'm helping the sales department and anyone else that might need something done.  I'll clean the damn toilets if they are dirty, I'll order embroidery supplies or talk to sales reps, I basically do anything that needs to be done that others aren't able to do or don't want to do.  About 50% of my time is dedicated to running the screen printing shop and 40% of my time is for the shop overall and about 10% of my day is spent here and getting things ready for the monthly classes I teach.  I also spend a bit of time answering emails from former students or future students, people email me about what manual press they think they should by, I talk to some of you guys on the phone or text, I'll help anyone that comes to me for anything, which is usually a few times a week.  I'll also spend time with industry veterans and learning anything I can about anything they want to talk to me about.  That alone takes up an hour or two of my week.

I probably missed a few things or didn't explain it very good but that's pretty much what everyone in the building does.  I know we could cut my rover out completely but since we got him, it's pretty nice having him around, I think we'll keep him.  He's just a bonus and things are good so we can afford to make things easier on us than they have been in the past with just 2 full timers out back and me.

So if I understand you have a dedicated sales (team/person), dedicated art (team/person), dedicated screen dept (team/person), dedicated printer (team/person).  You then have a rover, and yourself whom is basically a catch all for doing whatever needs done.  Let me know if I read it wrong.  I also assume within your company someone else handles all the day to day things of paying shop bills/payroll/purchasing/etc? 

We have nothing like that here, everyone has to float to do our work.  Here is how my shop run's. 

Sales/customer service/communication/scheduling/art/payroll/bills/Unload or pull from dryer/embroidery/setup and break down of press:  Brandt
Digitizing/embroidery/separations/film output/burn screens/wash out screens/all ordering (blanks/supplies)/loader on press: Shelly
Art/Unload or pull from dryer/Shipping/sorting incoming blanks/setup and break down of the press:  Erik
Embroidery/sorting/staging orders/pull from dryer/wash out screens: Stephanie
Reclaim Screens/Trash/General BS: Gary and Bobbie

Currently we operate about like this.

I do sales and email probably a good 80% of each day, this includes proofs, price quotes, taking payments, art changes, artwork start to finish, and so on.  I organize all paid jobs into the schedule how it fits best.  If I complete this work I then help on the press/embroidery/whatever.  No matter how busy I am I almost always break down/set up press.  I often do more than 100 emails in a day.  These are not emails like "ok cool" these are emails from as simple as that to as complicated as several paragraphs.  I also have to do payroll every 2 weeks, pay taxes seems like every 5 minutes, pay our bills, and so on.  I often do artwork every day, but less than I used to as Erik is taking over a lot of that.

Shelly, Mondays is generally her and Stephanie 100% together feeding all 11 heads all day long on embroidery.  Tuesday Stephanie will be 100% embroider as well and Shelly will assist her while she is doing separations, printing velum's, coating/burning screens.  Depending on what is on the embroidery machines Stephanie may wash out screens as well.  Wednesday/Thursday/Friday we generally screen print all day long.  Shelly loads/Erik Pulls/Stephanie or I will pull from the dryer.  Once pulled its either staged for the other side/print locations or boxed for shipping.  Erik does shipping by 3pm for 5:30 pick up.  Now on some weeks we have more embroidery and less screen print or vice versa, the week is arranged to accommodation that.  We do anywhere from 3-7 jobs a day on the screen print press.  A week here can be 30 screens can be 80, keep in mind its a 3 - 4 day print week, rarely ever do 5 days a week. 

Erik does artwork Monday/Tuesday solid, no interruptions except to ship USPS embroidery retail orders 1 time a day.  Erik does nothing with embroidery.  Erik will communicate with the customer who has bought artwork to complete their artwork.  This is of course after I sold it, so he is not selling, just doing the changes/proofing of art.  Erik organizes art for Shelly.  On slower print days Erik will also do artwork on Wed/Thurs/Friday. 

Stephanie in addition to above will have breaks in work and will generally do the sorting of incoming orders and stage them.  Often a week or more ahead of time.  We are working more with her to learn digitizing and at some point we hope to shift fully embroidery to her and she will run machines basically alone 4 days a week.  She is off on Fridays. 

Gary/Bobbie will come in on the weekends and clean our screens so we are good on Monday/Tuesday.

We remain at least 5-7 days out, as long as 7-12 at times (business days).

[GraphicDisorder]

Brandt, one thing to remember is that they have a FULL embroidery department in the neighboring building... Alan's people deal with mostly with screen printing full time (other than the afore mentioned rover).

Fully aware of that, which is sort of my whole point.  He get's to take a focused screen print approach to running his screen print shop.  I have to take a different approach because I am running Screen Print Shop, Embroidery Shop, Design Shop, Sticker Shop, Banner Shop, Business Card Shop, Flyer Shop, and so on.  In other words he has people do his embroidery side of their business, that sound like generally don't mix with screen print side.  Everyone here basically has to mix with all sides of our business based on how busy one is.  We are segregating them more and more all the time, but its a progression for a ultra small shop like ours.

This is basically why I think you can look at something like a DTS completely different from 2 different shops perspectives.  If we had 100% dedicated screen print staff, I would probably look at it much differently.  But we don't and to do that id have to hire what, 2-3 more full timers to run this shop at full steam embroidery/separate from screen printing one not effecting the other.  That's certainly a goal, but that's is DRASTICALLY more expensive than say adding a DTS.  Again I am not even sold on a DTS yet.