eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)

[GraphicDisorder]

Yes Sam it helps make money a tiny tiny bit faster, it does not make your auto print faster, your folder fold faster etc, but yes it helps make the current amount of money a tad bit faster. But more importantly does it make more money? Again unless you turned work away previously then he same amount of money is coming, albeit its made faster its not made more.

I have to side with Sam on this one. As you look at the printing process as a whole, wherever you improve efficiencies, the result will be cost savings. This can be in the form of ink, labor, film etc. The point I made earlier in the post is that we have radically improved our set-up times with the I-Screen. With all of the time saved on our set-ups, we are able to print more each day on each of our presses thus making more revenue each and every day.

I had an M&R rep out about 2 weeks ago, we did a 3 color (tight registration) set-up on darks in 4 minutes that was dead on the money with registration. We taped up reg marks and were printing in under 6 minutes. I'll get the video link and post it to illustrate the time savings.

As a contract print shop, downtime is a killer of profit. So maybe this machine doesn't actually produce the print but it certainly does support the process and increases efficiencies in the process as a whole.

BOOM

[GraphicDisorder]

This conversation is getting comical.  Having a second auto for example wouldn't do much good if you couldn't feed it screens.  So you'd need either twice the screen staff or some how do screens quicker.... DTS would make sense very quickly there. 

Some of you get to detailed in your break down of the process.  If the whole process from customer purchase to customer holding finished product is faster, then anything you do to make your process faster actually makes you money.  It may be the same money, but you made it faster.  Please tell me, how is making money faster bad?  If you can make money faster, your likely to find time to make more work come through the door.  You see where this is going.

Brandt not sure what world you live on or Sam for that matter but we are talking about a machine that images a screen and cuts expo time down some, it is not making a lot of time at all in the whole scheme of themes. If you had to print a 10k order the DTS would only shave a minute off that really long run, thats what some of us see and others do not. Some of us see that the machine is awesome but its expensive and it does not make any real money, when your shop is at capacity then sure it will free up some valuable time, if your one auto it will be minute, if your ten autos then it could start realizing serious numbers. Us personaly being a production type place I would prefer another press and hook up with bigger brokers and bigger universities, its available,  a DTS would not get us that kind of work but a second auto sure would.

So wait, you don't spend time then lining up velum's, and you would also save no time at the press with assumed even tighter reg since no velum's to move around on you at the exposure unit, oh and you would save no time now cataloging and then relocating velum's later when you need to reprint the job?  Now expand that out a year, 5 years, 10 years.  Your talking huge numbers if the equipment works as advertised. 

My shop is very much at capacity on screens.  We are a small shop, we don't have MORE time for screens.  In fact screens is very much what hold us back in doing more screen printing.  Remember here at my tiny shop everyone wears a lot of hats.  We can spend for an employee to dedicate to screens, sure.  But I can buy a machine much cheaper than a employee.  Surely we dont need a calculator to discuss that one.  Remember in my shop, we are designers that print, not printers that design.  We need each print process to be as fast as possible within our budget. If I had 10 autos out there, it wouldn't change my shops output right now.  Id need dedicated screen person (currently Shelly), who also sets up all embroidery, does all seps, does all ordering, does all loading on the auto and so on. 

As I have already said, every shop is set up different, including ours. 

[GraphicDisorder]

This conversation is getting comical.  Having a second auto for example wouldn't do much good if you couldn't feed it screens.  So you'd need either twice the screen staff or some how do screens quicker.... DTS would make sense very quickly there. 

What about feeding it jobs?  Can Sam output 80 screens in 80 minutes with his new tool?  Tony does, with film.  80 screens will fill two autos and hundreds of multi auto print shops feed the presses with film processed screens every day.  Can we at least agree that Tony's shop couldn't develop 80 screens in 80 minutes if he had a DTS?  He'd need at least 2, maybe 3 of them.  It does make sense very quickly once you get into many screens per day and you can't develop a screen as quickly as Tony's guys, but then again, this goes back to smaller shops and ROI for me.  Why would you buy a DTS to do screens quicker when you do a much poorer job in screen development than the average shop?  Just get better at screen development and be like Tony's guys.  If I can expose 2 screens to our competitions one screen, doesn't mean they need to go out and buy a DTS, that's all I'm saying.

What comes first, the chicken or the egg, the second auto or the DTS?  It's a good question and I really don't know what I'd buy first...probably leaning DTS but it's not easy.

Tony has dedicated screen people.  We don't even have 1 dedicated screen person, hell we don't even have 1 dedicated screen print person at all, any part of the process soup to nuts.  Comparing his set up to ours is like night and day.  If I can skip hiring someone and output screens faster than I am now, how could that be bad for my shop? 

It's clear to me here that every shop is very different. 

[Screened Gear]

Shelly), who also sets up all embroidery, does all seps, does all ordering, does all loading on the auto and so on. 

Sounds like you don't need a DTS you need another Shelly. I was wondering why Shelly doesn't post much anymore, poor overworked girl.

[inkbrigade]

Right now we're at 10-12 business day for turn around time. Sometimes it's worse. I KNOW that we lose customers because of that. Also we have to turn away rush jobs.

So what's the hold up? It's not that the presses aren't fast enough. It's that most of our jobs are small jobs. The setup time to register jobs on press is what's killing us.

Forget everything else, film, exposure time etc. If i can cut down the time it takes to setup the press and get it printing shirts i can print a few more jobs per day. We will be able to take rush orders and lower our turn around time thus bring in money we normally would have lost out on.
This is where the DTS helps make us money.

[GraphicDisorder]

Shelly), who also sets up all embroidery, does all seps, does all ordering, does all loading on the auto and so on. 

Sounds like you don't need a DTS you need another Shelly. I was wondering why Shelly doesn't post much anymore, poor overworked girl.

Got that right.  Shelly's costs a lot more than a DTS though!  LOL

[alan802]

Right now we're at 10-12 business day for turn around time. Sometimes it's worse. I KNOW that we lose customers because of that. Also we have to turn away rush jobs.

So what's the hold up? It's not that the presses aren't fast enough. It's that most of our jobs are small jobs. The setup time to register jobs on press is what's killing us.

Forget everything else, film, exposure time etc. If i can cut down the time it takes to setup the press and get it printing shirts i can print a few more jobs per day. We will be able to take rush orders and lower our turn around time thus bring in money we normally would have lost out on.
This is where the DTS helps make us money.

We don't have a DTS and we setup 3 colors in 5 minutes, the thing is you don't need a DTS to increase production capability, it is simply a tool that can help if used properly.

Tony has dedicated screen people.  We don't even have 1 dedicated screen person, hell we don't even have 1 dedicated screen print person at all, any part of the process soup to nuts.  Comparing his set up to ours is like night and day.  If I can skip hiring someone and output screens faster than I am now, how could that be bad for my shop? 

It's clear to me here that every shop is very different. 

It's probably going to increase your screen development if it's the only thing added, and if you want to operate your way and spend $40K on a machine that will give your shop a boost in production then that's what you got to do.  I will say that if a DTS machine won't yield a proper ROI at our shop, that's what I mean, at our shop.  The reason is because we don't need a DTS to produce enough screens to do the work we have.  Now that begs the question if we can do it, if Tony can do it, why can't others?  Well, every shop is different. 

That's why I asked if anyone thinks Tony's shop could do 80 screens in 80 minutes with a DTS, so that we wouldn't be comparing Tony's shop to someone like yours.  So nobody can even suck up their pride a little and admit that Tony's 4 auto shop would be slower with DTS?  So nobody can admit that our shop wouldn't benefit enough to make a $40K investment worth it?  I'll admit that DTS is going to make a lot of you very happy, especially the larger shops because they'll get a return on their investment.  Smaller shops will benefit in other ways besides ROI, but if they can justify it to themselves and stay in business then that's all that matters.

[screenprintguy]

That's what I'm banking on Jamie, speed up the process that we already have, and big big thing for me, to make my life easier with linning up the 6-8 color jobs that we do a few of daily. Again for me, doing multiple simulated process jobs a day, lining up by myself, outputting film, by myself, grid alingment and screen burning by myself, the CTS makes sense, and if it's not all that it's sold to be, M&R will take it back and refund, they stand by that. If any of you guys have done 8 color simulated process jobs, and do more than 1 a day and are 1 person doing the pre-press, you can't tell me you don't see where CTS would be very attractive. Not just sim process how about 8 color but reg jobs, especially when you do a lot of pre-run proofing for very picky high paying customers. To know that I "should" be able to lock and load for sample print, pull down and quickly set up an approved design, vs, buying another auto, to hold a design for hours, maybe a full day so that other production can go on, is a big factor for me. And, when we actually need that second auto, I feel this move would also keep that going smoothly and accurately. My wife and I don't mind making personal financial sacrifices to buy the proper tools to do the job better here, this is what we are planning to do till we retire, so long term is my plan. Just like saying someone couldn't push their dryer a few more years but wanted a new one for this or that reason. Unless I am in my own boat here, pre-press is one of the most important parts of what we all do besides the sale. Anyone can load and pull a shirt, but if you want to be better than the other shop, your set ups need to be impressive, this can only make that better. No worry about film slipping while printing, "that does happen in inkjet printers, and can through off a design, slightly but happens".  The time to print a film, is already on the screen, for me, big factor in speed. The image is exactly where it needs to be, I'm not jerkin around with a carrier sheet and tape, when I will go to expose, I won't worry if the blanket and vacuum moved anything that will tick me off on press later. I'll be able to take that big jalopy out of my exposure unit and burn 2 screens at a time, and with a 7,500 watt unit, might take 10-20 seconds for 2 screens. All that said and done, the big part, lining up 6-8 color jobs that need approval and then get yanked down to be re-loaded after approved. It totally makes sense to  us. Once something is approved and ready to go, the easy part takes place. I don't know about you guys, but actually running the press, although labor intensive, is the dummy part of the whole job. I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, this has been something we have looked into for the past 2 years, thought we would still be a few ways off, but found the right deal, and after speaking with several shops that do high detailed work, Greg Kitsen for one, even though they are bigger and have more coin to blow, we know it's not a B.S. marketing ploy like most direct to garment scenarios are. No offense to DTG guys, but for me, the market is slim and seems like a big problematic non profitable deal. 
  Now, if we had say 5 more bodies already doing a lot of these tasks, and I told so and so to break his back tightly aligning multi color jobs, I might not feel the same way, but then again, maybe I wouldn't need those 5 and their personal problems that come along with them, if I pony up the dough for a machine that doesn't complain and should be deadnuts on. Just my view, but everyone's shop is different. That is clearly obvious.

Mike

[inkman996]

No one here that owns a DTS currently has answered my question about warped screens and print height.

Screens are not all exact and no one can guarantee perfect newmans. I am curious how not so perfect screens are dealt with?

[alan802]

What about what Pierre brought up?  I know by looking at the specs they should do higher lpi and resolution versus film, but Pierre has seen one up close and says the halftones are not what he gets on film.  That's not as big of a deal for some of us, but it's just one more reason to think about it.

I think if I bought an automatic unloader for the auto it would give me a much faster ROI than a DTS machine, according to the numbers I've done so far.  I could cut one person's hours in half assuming it worked like it's supposed to and strickly comparing payroll to machine cost I would get 18 months ROI, that's pretty damn good compared to my ROI from a DTS.  I also think some of you should consider buying an automatic screen reclaimer if you really want to do more with less people.  It's really the same argument as DTS only makes more sense from an ROI perspective.  Those two machines would benefit a lot of shops more than a DTS. 

I wonder if our shop could do the work we do now and get rid of 1.5 employees, buy an auto reclaim, auto unloader and a DTS?  Does anyone know if you still have to do a lot of work on the screens when they come out of the reclaim machine?  Does anyone on this forum have one?  Might be as much justification in buying an unloader and reclaim machine as a DTS for some shops, just a thought. 

[GraphicDisorder]

So for context tell us soup to nuts from order taking to art to screens to set up to print to tear down to reclaim who does what in your shop.  Use names of your employees or person 1 person 2, person 3.  Get detailed like person one will help do x when not doing y, y is the job they do 85% of the day.   

Maybe we all would do a little good to understand how each run from start to finish.  I suspect a lot more people are involved in a operation like several here and it may be really difficult to understand the ultra small shops like mine and others here.   

[Inkworks]

All I keep hearing is how DTS are great FPU's.....

Alan I think it was your lightbox design that I'm going to be copying, how's it working for you? I figure it'll be $30-50 worth of parts, except I probably have the stuff lying around the shop already.

[DannyGruninger]

No one here that owns a DTS currently has answered my question about warped screens and print height.

Screens are not all exact and no one can guarantee perfect newmans. I am curious how not so perfect screens are dealt with?

Inkman, I can only speak for our machine as I do not know how the others work...... The printhead itself has a gap between itself and the actual screen which is around 1/4" gap. The ink actually "jumps" this gap before it lays onto the emulsion. The clamping function on the dts unit works basically the same as the screen clamps that are on auto presses. If you have a warped screen as soon as the clamps are engaged it flattens it out as it does on the press......

My shop currently uses mostly mzx roller frames but we probably have 50-60 static's that we still use daily. Lots of those screens are pretty warped with shitty mesh on them but we haven't ran into any issues with them. Since the screen sits approx 1/4" below the printhead, which that sits below the top of the dts screen clamps there's no issues.


It's pretty impressive to think the ink actually jumps a gap there.....But as far as warped screens we have done some really bad ones with no issues at all....

[DannyGruninger]

What about what Pierre brought up?  I know by looking at the specs they should do higher lpi and resolution versus film, but Pierre has seen one up close and says the halftones are not what he gets on film.  That's not as big of a deal for some of us, but it's just one more reason to think about it.

From my experience we are getting a BETTER dot with our DTS than printing film. I did a comparison the very first day we got the dts hooked up comparing our Epson 4800 using Accurip to our lawson dts unit. We have since calibrated the dot to be better on our machine so I'm confident to say our dts can print a better dot.

I put my loupe up to the dot and took a photo with my iphone so the quality isn't great but you should be able to see the difference.

The first picture here is our epson 4800 using accurip.... Note the noise around each dot



This picture here is our lawson dts using the colorprint rip.




Based on our experience and what I saw castleking post yesterday I would say this technology can print a better dot but I'm sure we can debate that as well hahahaha

[Gilligan]

I'm just curious as to why I'm the a-hole when everyone else has brought up each argument that I brought up.

I didn't say anything different than all of these guys... I just did it all in basically one post.

I'll also say it again, $40/year x 10 years = $400 bucks... over 10 years?!  That's "big money"?  Hell, I'm tempted to send you a check for $400 bucks to cover your scotch tape needs for the next 10 years.  I've dropped more money standing in line at an Arby's before in Jackson, MS.  Literally, I didn't notice it till we were checking into our hotel in Killeen, TX (the pay for the week long gig).  The flip side that was also a good single night's pay at a bar in Baton Rouge, LA (only an hour away) and about the same celebrity status. LOL

For the record Brandt, Alan's representation of his shop is pretty much spot on.  I've seen it in action, he tells it like it is.