Messing Around With Mesh Tension Today

[Mr Tees!!]

...I managed a shop for ten years that was strictly rollerframes, and now that I have my own shop, I dont want them. I just didnt care for the maitenance vs return on them. That high tension was a great benefit, but with it came higher mesh failure, of course.
...And remeshing these is not that easy either. We used roller panels AND had a roller table, so inserting new mesh and tensioning was easy....but getting blown mesh out and prepping the frame for new mesh can be a real time-consumer. First, removing the protective tape off the frames is a hassle, then geting the locking strips out cleanly amost never happened. Then, clean the frame, check and usually remove burrs from the channels. Finally you get to remesh the frame, and reapply the protective tape. There was just a lot of little hidden time/cost.
...That being said, there are time when I think it would be nice to have a few around, with maybe some 125 mesh cranked WAY high for those kickass underbases.

...I will start a new thread on my new thought on statics and tensions, I dont want to derail Alans thread here. Gimme a few.....

[alan802]

I certainly have no problem discussing anything here MrTees.  You don't have to start a new thread if you don't want to.  We can do it all here.  I like hearing why others who have used both types say why they prefer one or the other.  Guys who have very limited use of one or the other and not both can chime in too but without extensive knowledge of both low and high tension you can't really give much of a comparison, just your own personal experience in using one or the other.

[Mr Tees!!]

..Thanks Alan, but I just started another one. I dont want Andy the Thread-Nazi on my ass.....

...check it out and let me know what you think. I also need to send you a PM when I get some real time, I have a Tri-Loc idea you might be interested in.

[GraphicDisorder]

do you really see a differance in these higher tensions? we have been using rollers here and there for the past year, and I have to admit at first we were like, holy sh!t, these are sweet. But as we learned more and more about squeegies, pressure, seps and mesh selection - I no longer use the rollers, they just do not fit in our model. too time consuming for a small shop like mine. not to turn this into a roller debat but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?

Often wondered this as well.  You often get that reaction out of people when they first go to them.  But I can't tell you how many people talk about it on these boards then a picture is posted later of some thing on their press or something and there they are, statics on the press being used.  If they were the end all be all why would that be happening.  I would think if in fact night and day they would phase out statics all the way.

I am at the point where we are going to do be moving to either rollers or a bigger press.  Probably sooner than later.  Probably both before its over with but I wonder should I do rollers first or bigger press first?  We are doing so many jobs now that are 6-7 colors.  I need more heads.  Period.  In fact its quickly becoming the more colors I will put on it the more they will pay for and seem happy to with the detailed art.  But at the same time I could probably learn discharge and ditch flashing and end up picking up a head or two from not using a flash/cool down.  Could band aid it for awhile.  What to do..

Brandt, we're strictly roller frames here, no statics. I do believe that prints come out better from having rollers (as long as your tensions and what not are correct), but I believe the biggest benefit to rollers/high tension is the consistent increase in speed, less ink being used to achieve the coverage needed, and great one hit whites. I know you know all of this already, just throwing in my 2 cents here... It's not only about print quality, but about more production in less time.

Faster printing would certainly be a nice side effect of course.  I got a lot to think about.   

[StuJohnston]

Something has been bugging me about this for some time, wouldn't stretching mesh to really high tension reduce the TPI considerably?

[prozyan]

but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?

Honestly, no.  This has been addressed previously, but I just wanted to reinforce it.  High tension does NOT result in a better print than static screens.  No more than an automatic press results in a better print than a manual.

What high tension does, much like an auto vs. manual, is offer a more consistent print and increases speed in some areas, such as eliminating the need for multiple print stroke or in some cases, eliminating the need for p/f/p.  WOW printing is also often easier, crisper, and faster with high tension screens.

[inkbrigade]

We're all roller frames and roller mesh at 45n.
We have better registration, ink coverage, more speed and just higher quality prints over the statics. Would it be easier just to order statics? Sure would! Is it worth it? Nope. Not for us.

[alan802]

I do see a better quality print on high tension screens, especially with white prints on darks.  With a 6 color on white shirts, no difference with the human eye.  6 color sim process on black, I'd bet there would be a noticeable difference in print quality. You'll never know until you print the job side by side with both screens but I know what our prints looked like 4 years ago versus now, high tension played a role in that change.

[Homer]

for us - and I'm probably alone in this boat- we run rollers and panelframes, no glued statics. we ran a job on rollers about 3 months ago, just ran it again this past week on panels with new seps and different squeegies and the prints looked way better. So for me, I believe the tension is just a part of the puzzle. It helps make a great print, faster setup (not sold on that yet), more consistant images, however, I think this can also be achieved with other screen systems. As long as you have a system in place. We are going to track our panels and replace them more often. We need to find that sweet spot for tension, whatever it is, and maintain that. I get faster set ups with panel frames because my reg devices are geared towards that system. I do see what happens with low tension screens, but what is the magic number for optimal tension? I think that will change with every shop.

I couldn't print a screen at these 50+ newtons, my press couldn't handle that tight calibration and off contact.

[islandtees]

do you really see a differance in these higher tensions? we have been using rollers here and there for the past year, and I have to admit at first we were like, holy sh!t, these are sweet. But as we learned more and more about squeegies, pressure, seps and mesh selection - I no longer use the rollers, they just do not fit in our model. too time consuming for a small shop like mine. not to turn this into a roller debat but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?

Often wondered this as well.  You often get that reaction out of people when they first go to them.  But I can't tell you how many people talk about it on these boards then a picture is posted later of some thing on their press or something and there they are, statics on the press being used.  If they were the end all be all why would that be happening.  I would think if in fact night and day they would phase out statics all the way.

I am at the point where we are going to do be moving to either rollers or a bigger press.  Probably sooner than later.  Probably both before its over with but I wonder should I do rollers first or bigger press first?  We are doing so many jobs now that are 6-7 colors.  I need more heads.  Period.  In fact its quickly becoming the more colors I will put on it the more they will pay for and seem happy to with the detailed art.  But at the same time I could probably learn discharge and ditch flashing and end up picking up a head or two from not using a flash/cool down.  Could band aid it for awhile.  What to do..

Brandt, we're strictly roller frames here, no statics. I do believe that prints come out better from having rollers (as long as your tensions and what not are correct), but I believe the biggest benefit to rollers/high tension is the consistent increase in speed, less ink being used to achieve the coverage needed, and great one hit whites. I know you know all of this already, just throwing in my 2 cents here... It's not only about print quality, but about more production in less time.

Faster printing would certainly be a nice side effect of course.  I got a lot to think about.

We were like you as far as a press goes. We had a 8 color and found we didnt have enough heads  We just brought in a 12 color with another quartz flash (all M&R) and could not be happier. We strictly use roller frames.(We have the stretching table and bolts of mesh)
Once you have a system down it doesnt take long to mesh frames and get ready for press. I would get the frames first then the press. You have a nice press now and would benifit from roller frames. Keep a eye out for used ones, thats how I have purchased many of ours. We found many M3's in great condition for a fraction of new.

[GraphicDisorder]

do you really see a differance in these higher tensions? we have been using rollers here and there for the past year, and I have to admit at first we were like, holy sh!t, these are sweet. But as we learned more and more about squeegies, pressure, seps and mesh selection - I no longer use the rollers, they just do not fit in our model. too time consuming for a small shop like mine. not to turn this into a roller debat but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?

Often wondered this as well.  You often get that reaction out of people when they first go to them.  But I can't tell you how many people talk about it on these boards then a picture is posted later of some thing on their press or something and there they are, statics on the press being used.  If they were the end all be all why would that be happening.  I would think if in fact night and day they would phase out statics all the way.

I am at the point where we are going to do be moving to either rollers or a bigger press.  Probably sooner than later.  Probably both before its over with but I wonder should I do rollers first or bigger press first?  We are doing so many jobs now that are 6-7 colors.  I need more heads.  Period.  In fact its quickly becoming the more colors I will put on it the more they will pay for and seem happy to with the detailed art.  But at the same time I could probably learn discharge and ditch flashing and end up picking up a head or two from not using a flash/cool down.  Could band aid it for awhile.  What to do..

Brandt, we're strictly roller frames here, no statics. I do believe that prints come out better from having rollers (as long as your tensions and what not are correct), but I believe the biggest benefit to rollers/high tension is the consistent increase in speed, less ink being used to achieve the coverage needed, and great one hit whites. I know you know all of this already, just throwing in my 2 cents here... It's not only about print quality, but about more production in less time.

Faster printing would certainly be a nice side effect of course.  I got a lot to think about.

We were like you as far as a press goes. We had a 8 color and found we didnt have enough heads  We just brought in a 12 color with another quartz flash (all M&R) and could not be happier. We strictly use roller frames.(We have the stretching table and bolts of mesh)
Once you have a system down it doesnt take long to mesh frames and get ready for press. I would get the frames first then the press. You have a nice press now and would benifit from roller frames. Keep a eye out for used ones, thats how I have purchased many of ours. We found many M3's in great condition for a fraction of new.

I am thinking 14 or 16 color when we do it next.  I don't wanna run out of heads again for awhile.  I will also add probably 2 more flashes as well when I do it.

For now I have to decide when to do that and when to get rollers.  Then the other fun question is what size rollers.  I would love to move all to 25x36's.  We do a good bit of oversized printing.  Sucks having 2 sizes of screens in the shop. 

[tonypep]

You'd be surprised how many shops swear by roller frames yet don't take the time to regularly test and record tension; and re-tension as necessary. Kind of misses the point. BTW I have both statics and re-tens. Haven't noticed any advantage to printing DC on tight frames. And I have a stretching system upstairs that allows me to mesh up (2) 23x 31 frames at a clip

[alan802]

I would think that there would be less benefit with higher tension when printing discharge.  You don't need to shear the ink, you drive it through the stencil and into the shirt so off contact, squeegee pressure, fill pressure, etc doesn't need to be as precise as trying to print with the least amount of pressure and as fast as possible to get the ink to sit on top of the shirt.  Don't you think that is the case Tony?  When we print discharge it's easier because we don't have to be on top of all the variables.  I just move the print head pressure regulator up to 45 and I don't really look at off contact as long as there is at least a tiny bit and I just make sure the ink clears the screen and gets into the shirt fibers and we're done.

[inkman996]

I have been using the triloc for quite a while now and use only statics and some panel frames, all I can say is 90% of jobs triloced are nuts on no adjustment ever needed, the few times its of its easy to see its because the frame has a little wobble in it, so what I am saying is I cant see how having rollers would ever increase our set up in any way. In fact unless you are assuring your rollers are completely flat every single frame you might have a harder time with rollers and a tri-loc. There is a shop ion town I visited that used to use rollers, everyone one of them was racked horribly, and I could bet there is hundreds of other users out there that have the same issue.

[JBLUE]

Most statics are not flat. The welding causes warpage no matter how good the jig is.