Author Topic: Pad Printing question?  (Read 2635 times)

Offline Binkspot

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1108
Pad Printing question?
« on: August 20, 2012, 06:47:59 PM »
For any pad printers out there, how long is a plate with an image good for.

I understand the image should be good for several thousand prints and the plates can not be reclaimed and coated like a screen but if a logo is burned onto a plate and you run a job of 100 widgets can the plate be cleaned and stored to be used again for reorders of the same logo a few months later like a screen? Or are they a one shot deal, once the job is run the plate gets tossed.



Offline ebscreen

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4281
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 08:32:12 PM »
No expert here, but most plates should be reusable for many thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of impressions
with cleaning, etc. between. Not a one shot deal by any means.

I know there is a difference between the chemical types (water vs alcohol I think?) and that is a factor in longevity.


Then there are the ones that are etched in steel.....

Offline Inkworks

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1761
  • Pad&Screenprinter
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2012, 08:56:33 PM »
The water wash and alcohol wash are somewhat re-usable if you are careful with them, and careful with your cup/doctor blade pressure. The acid etch are pretty much bullet proof. All I use are thin steel acid etch, they aren't really much more expensive, but take a bit more skill to get proper image depth. I have plates that have seen 250,000+ impressions.

While we're on the subject, pretty much all pad-printers are going to sealed cups, I run open ink well and save a ton of money because I can use so much smaller plates. Our smallest plate size is 2" x 3" For a 90mm sealed cup you'd need a plate 4" x 8-9"
Wishin' I was Fishin'

Offline Gilligan

  • !!!
  • Ludicrous Speed Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 6853
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2012, 10:09:27 PM »
Ink, we've talked about this a couple of times before but I was wondering if you knew of a good article or website that describes the process as well as the equipment involved.

Thanks in advance!

Offline Inkworks

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1761
  • Pad&Screenprinter
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2012, 10:26:38 PM »
Pad printing or plate making?
Wishin' I was Fishin'

Offline Gilligan

  • !!!
  • Ludicrous Speed Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 6853
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2012, 10:50:19 PM »
Pad printing or plate making?

Yeah. ;)

Offline Inkworks

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1761
  • Pad&Screenprinter
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2012, 11:51:28 PM »
Nope, no comprehensive sites that I know of. I haven't even found a Padprinting forum with any decent traffic.

Stay the hell away from any non-powered units, there are enough variables without hand cranking levers etc. Those press-a-print units that they sell for $2200+ are not worth the scrap value of the metal they're made from. I'd say they're for kitchen table hobbyists, but I wouldn't wish the stress on any hobbyist I know of.

Here is the basics of it:

The plates are etched 20 - 30 microns deep, the difference in depth of a couple of microns makes a big difference in how it prints. Learning how to manage those differences is the key to success, and there are dozens of variables to deal with, and exponential combinations of them. To a certain degree nothing will replace years of experience to give you educated guesses on what to change, but a good understanding of what is happening and why helps.

The plates also get a 1/2 tone throughout the entire image. 300LPI 80% or 200LPI 90% are common to use, and no you Epson won't cut it. you'll need a solid half tone film from and image setter, but if you take care of it it'll last a long time, and first you expose the image, then expose again with the 1/2 tone film. The half tone does not show in the image when printed, it's put there to keep the doctor blade from dipping into the image and scooping out the ink. Remember the images are etched less than .002" deep, so it wouldn't take much for the doctor blade to deflect and scoop out the ink and leave parts of the image blank or very weak.

The plate either goes in an open tray with the ink, or a cup filled with ink sits upside down on the plate.

In an open ink well a brush, roller or something similar to a flood bar brings the ink forward and covers/fills the image, then on the back stroke a flat doctor blade comes down, scraping all the ink off leaving the image filled.

In a closed cup system the cup filled with ink slides forward covering/filling the image on the plate, then slides back and scrapes all the excess ink off leaving the image filled.

From here on in both systems do the same thing.

Padprinting ink dries many times faster than the fastest drying solvent based ink you've ever screenprinted with, Put it on a screen and you'll be lucky to get a couple of passes before it dries in, even with fast printing and immediate flooding. I do sometimes use padprinting inks for screenprinting, but they need to be loaded up with retarder, and even then they need frequent thinning

There are several "speeds" of thinners that come with the inks so you can tailor the flashing off speed to your needs, and the flash-off speed is everything in padprinting.

Because the image filled with ink is exposed to air, the top surface of the ink becomes tacky, when the pad comes down on the image the tacky ink sticks to it, once the ink is on the pad the bottom layer of ink is exposed to the air and it becomes tacky, so when the pad comes down on the part it sticks to the part and transfers off the pad.

The shop heat and humidity very much affect the print!

There-in lies the rub. The deeper the plate, the longer it takes for the top and bottom layers to flash-off, too deep and it may not pick up all the ink, or may not drop all the ink off the pad. too shallow and you'll see the half tones and may not get a very opaque print. There are many products that we double-hit to get opacity, and unlike screenprinting, you do effectively get twice the ink deposit on two prints as the image effectively flash dries itself in a second or less on the part and the second print will sit right on top.

Controlling the flash-off of thinners from the image before it on the pad, and then once it's on the pad can be done in many many ways. Most machines have speed settings for the forward, back, up and down speeds of the carriage and pad, some machines have air lines that you can point at the pad to speed up flash-off. Various thinner types and retarders help too. We have a 2 speed/3 heat setting hair dryer on each machine with flexible stands. It can be easy to dry everything enough to get a good transfer to and from the pad, but with many inks, too much drying on the pad means that the ink won't bite onto the product. Remember that the part of the ink that touches the part getting partially dried before transferring, over dry it and it'll scrape right off once dry..... And the kicker is with epoxy ink you won't know until the next day until the ink has cured fully. it's possible to have a couple of thousand printed parts on a table with 1/2 of them good as gold, and half where you can easily scrape off the ink because the printer got a little too blow-dryer happy and skinned over the bottom layer of the print a little too much before it hit the part.

Pad printed images go on the part much dryer than screenprinted images! and you need to make sure they aren't too dry. Some inks are much more forgiving than others!

We stock 5 different lines, all ITW Transtech:

Type "P" which is 10:1 with hardener, it a good all around ink for most plastics, wood or coated/painted surfaces that solvents will dissolve. it's not too tough or chemical resistant and gets most of it's strength by the solvent binding the ink with the surface it's printed on. Air-cure is fine, can be force cured

Type "B"  4:1 with hardener, good for some metals, anodized or powder coated surfaces, some hard plastics etc. Air cure is fine, ca be force cured.

Type "W" 2:1 with hardener, very tough ink, used for golf balls, some metals or coated surfaces, air cured is fine, can be force cured

Type "PH" 10:1 with hardener, for rubber, plasticized PVC and other flexible products, air cure is fine.

Type "BG/L" 20:1 with special hardener. For glass, ceramic, metals. It really need a good heat dry for full cure. humidity helps with the cure too.

At about $100/quart(litre) and 10-20 colours stocked in each type (5), the initial outlay is pretty steep. Some places will sell you 200mls rather than a full quart. I mix 30-45 grams per job, and no matter how much you print in a day, you'll be throwing out 80+% of the mixed ink at the end of the day. That's how little actually gets printed on the product.

Remember in 2 part solvent inks that dried and cured are two different things!

Groovy pad printing animated .gifs:

http://www.tampoprint.de/en/3techniken_en/tampondruck_en.html

Some other light reading for you:

http://www.itwtranstech.com/Support/PadPrinting101/tabid/834/Default.aspx

http://www.itwtranstech.com/Support/PadPrintingTips/tabid/853/Default.aspx

http://www.tampoprintusa.com/Learning-Center.html
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:39:54 AM by Inkworks »
Wishin' I was Fishin'

Offline Gilligan

  • !!!
  • Ludicrous Speed Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 6853
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2012, 12:13:27 AM »
Awesome!

Thanks for another great lesson!

I have such a strong desire to get into pad printing... but you sure know how to scare the crap out of someone. ;)

Offline Prosperi-Tees

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4297
  • Common Sense - Get Some
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2012, 12:15:11 AM »
Sheesh!!!! I don't want to get into that for sure!!!!  :o

Offline Inkworks

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1761
  • Pad&Screenprinter
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2012, 12:31:45 AM »
Hop on a plane and come check it out. Once you get things straightened out it's a great revenue stream. My fastest print ever was 1000 disposable lighters in 22 minutes (that's 227dozen/hour).

We've found  a great niche with printed wineglasses up here in Wine Country Canada (google "Wine" and "Okanagan Valley")



Wednesday I have 2500 glasses one location, 300 glasses 3 locations, 48 glasses one location and 120 glasses 1 location, all the same ink colour so 1 set-up, 3 plate changes, and we should be able to knock them out with 2 people in an eight hour shift, boxed, ready to ship...

Plus having all the wineries, wine tastings and wine festivals for customers is a pretty great perk..... *hic*
Wishin' I was Fishin'

Offline 3Deep

  • !!!
  • Ludicrous Speed Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 5330
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2012, 12:33:47 AM »
I spent good money on a brand new printa system and I didn't make any money with it, yes we printed plenty of jobs ,but nothing you can hang your hat on.  By the way I did halftone film all the time for my plates with an Epson 3000, the plates will dam near last forever if you take care on how you clean them up after use.  My Printa system right now is a dust catcher, we have not use that thing in allmost a year.

Darryl
Life is like Kool-Aid, gotta add sugar/hardwork to make it sweet!!

Offline Inkworks

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1761
  • Pad&Screenprinter
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2012, 12:55:38 AM »
I've been pad printing for 20+ years and I wouldn't want to try to produce at shop levels with a hand crank machine, or to try to be consistent with one either. I wish I could warn people away from those thing, particularly when you can get automatic machines for the same price.

Wishin' I was Fishin'

Offline 3Deep

  • !!!
  • Ludicrous Speed Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 5330
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2012, 10:58:38 AM »
I've been pad printing for 20+ years and I wouldn't want to try to produce at shop levels with a hand crank machine, or to try to be consistent with one either. I wish I could warn people away from those thing, particularly when you can get automatic machines for the same price.

Ink wish I had known that back in the day, and your right its a wate of money and time..auto would be the way to go if you got the biz.

Darryl
Life is like Kool-Aid, gotta add sugar/hardwork to make it sweet!!

Offline Inkworks

  • !!!
  • Gonzo Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1761
  • Pad&Screenprinter
Re: Pad Printing question?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2012, 12:13:02 PM »
Being a niche service, it does take time to build a clientele, but once they find you, you're indispensable to them.
Wishin' I was Fishin'