Sceens letting go?

[Evo]

I just want to add a little bit more info (sorry i dont get on here much lol)....its been about 1 a week for 7 weeks. 

90% of the time it's happened when i've pulled it out of the cabinet to put emulsion on.  and then i yell "ARE YOU SERIOUS"

it's generally a 6-8" section that has separated from the side. within 2-3 days the whole side has come unglued.

I've always bought my screens from poconoscreen. 

Some of these have been used probably 100 times over 5 years, at least 1 was only used once.

mesh #'s are from 137's, to 158's to 230's.

The only thing i have changed in the mix is changing to a pink degreaser by ICC chemicals that smells like cherries...just brush a light coating on there and hose it off...i dont ever put it on the 'frame' part.

when i do it, i always work from the back side of the screen, i have no idea what "my other people" are doing because i cant baby sit but i guess i will have to eavesdrop in there next time and re-teach.

i keep the drying cabinet on about 15-20 minutes tops and i think it maxes out at 100 degrees...(again, hasnt been an issue in the 5 years previous)

super frustrating....P.S., i couldnt stop him from buying this boat. lol :-|

Thought: you mentioned the ICC degreaser, which is probably the most benign chemical to put on a screen. You can (and often should) degrease the frame. It's a good idea to thoroughly wash the mesh and entire frame on a regular basis, rinsing with a gentle flood. Think: "sterilize" on each frame. This prevents and solvent or chemical residues from spoiling otherwise perfectly degreased mesh before coating.

What might actually be a culprit is any haze remover (or ghost remover or whatever it might be called) that you might be using. Most haze removers can adversely affect stretch and glue frames.

Maybe if you outline each one of the steps and what chems are involved we can nail it down.

[shellyky]

I use 1-step franmar in the dip tank (and always have since day one)...
Then after a quick soak, pressure wash out everything that will come out at a reasonable distance from the screen/gun...
Anything left in there gets a mist of 660 Imagemate Reclaimer (always use this chemical) for emulsion, or a dab of 206 Imagemate "dehaze/Degrease" (i use this for ink degredant, always have, you can pretty much skip degreasing as well, its an all purpose cleaner for me, maybe it shouldn't be but as of now have not had an issue with any chemicals)
A rinse, then a quarter or smaller sized drop of this pink degreaser which is model #858, brush it on both sides then rinse thoroughly.  Drip dry for a second then off to the drying cabinet.  One cabinet holds 10, one holds 24.  THe 24 one stays on a tad longer because it has more 'work' to do to dry them all. but i have pulled these "duds" out of both cabinets.

Screen girl told me her steps, it's all legit.  I will need to ask his parents what they're doing.  you would think if it was chemical based, it would be doing it on the 'short end' of the screens, where it runs off and soaks down into the washout booth...but its been the long end every time, about 6-10" down is where it starts usually. 

[mk162]

First, get that pink crap out of the shop.  It's an abrader.  They tried to push that stuff on me too and I told the guy I didn't want it on my screen and he had to demo it and did it anyway.  Pissed me off.

That stuff makes an AWESOME hand cleaner though...so I guess keep it for that.

If the only thing that has changed is the person, they are doing something different...watch her work.

Did somebody recharge the chems in the tank and put too much in?

[Evo]

First, get that pink crap out of the shop.  It's an abrader.  They tried to push that stuff on me too and I told the guy I didn't want it on my screen and he had to demo it and did it anyway.  Pissed me off.

That stuff makes an AWESOME hand cleaner though...so I guess keep it for that.

If the only thing that has changed is the person, they are doing something different...watch her work.

Did somebody recharge the chems in the tank and put too much in?

Wait, it's that "The Pink Stuff" paste? With the gravely crap in it that smells like cherry candy? It's the worst. That is a degreaser AND a dehazer AND an abrader. In other words, it's screen death for statics. That means some of these screens are getting double doses of dehazer, AND the mesh is getting weakened by the abrader. No wonder the glue finally let go.

[Evo]

BTW, for those unaware, and "abrader" is any of many screen chems or pastes with an abrasive medium added to "roughen up" the surface of the mesh in the degreasing process. It's a dinosaur from the old days where the theory was on new screens it would help the emulsion adhere better. It was supposed to be used just on the first degreasing/prep for new mesh.

Problem is it doesn't help the emulsion stick any better than a plain old properly degreased screen, and it shortens the life of the mesh considerably. Might was well take some 220 grit sand paper and go to town on it.

Shelly, bag up any of that pink stuff you have left and get it out of the shop. Consider it deadly poison for screens.

[mk162]

no, that pink stuff makes GREAT hand wash.  it's actually not caustic as it's meant to be a degreaser and no a dehazer.

[inkman996]

It sounds like the screens go through a lot of chemical cleaning each time around and like Evo said its weakening the mesh just enough. My theory as to why its releasing 6+ inches down on the long side is because thats where the most stress is put on the mesh from printing on the automatic. Every time that squeegee chops down its stressing the point where the mesh is attached. I believe you guys do a lot of discharge or WB as well and that usually means greater pressures. I wonder if some of those screens that let go on you had some really long runs or just happened to be used more often than others.

[Frog]

BTW, for those unaware, and "abrader" is any of many screen chems or pastes with an abrasive medium added to "roughen up" the surface of the mesh in the degreasing process. It's a dinosaur from the old days where the theory was on new screens it would help the emulsion adhere better. It was supposed to be used just on the first degreasing/prep for new mesh.

Problem is it doesn't help the emulsion stick any better than a plain old properly degreased screen, and it shortens the life of the mesh considerably. Might was well take some 220 grit sand paper and go to town on it.

Shelly, bag up any of that pink stuff you have left and get it out of the shop. Consider it deadly poison for screens.

Ulano says that abrading the screen is still recommended when capillary film is used, as it doesn't "sandwich" the mesh as direct emulsion does.
Though Ulano was a little late on the change in industry thought that it was best to not use it on all screens, unfortunately, it does make a certain sense with film. Whether the increased adhesion outweighs the mesh damage and shortened mesh life is a great consideration.
On the other hand, Autotype's instruction's merely say "Prepare the mesh thoroughly"

Almost enough here for a new thread, though I think that we may have discussed abrader in the past, along with the Autotype micro photographs of damaged threads as well as the results of using cleansing powders and their remaining embedded particles.

[Homer]

this pink stuff? it's useless. it's a stain remover, not a haze remover. the imagemate 260 you are using is better than this stuff.

http://www.sourceoneonline.com/item.asp?categoryID=4&sectionID=26&subSectionID=51&subSection2ID=0&subSection3ID=0&attrCatID=0&attrIDs=0&catID=51&catTab=sub_section&productID=1945

[ScreenFoo]

I've called the rep on this before--I'm pretty sure it IS their hand soap. 

BTW, for those unaware, and "abrader" is any of many screen chems or pastes with an abrasive medium added to "roughen up" the surface of the mesh in the degreasing process. It's a dinosaur from the old days where the theory was on new screens it would help the emulsion adhere better. It was supposed to be used just on the first degreasing/prep for new mesh.

Problem is it doesn't help the emulsion stick any better than a plain old properly degreased screen, and it shortens the life of the mesh considerably. Might was well take some 220 grit sand paper and go to town on it.

Shelly, bag up any of that pink stuff you have left and get it out of the shop. Consider it deadly poison for screens.

Ulano says that abrading the screen is still recommended when capillary film is used, as it doesn't "sandwich" the mesh as direct emulsion does.
Though Ulano was a little late on the change in industry thought that it was best to not use it on all screens, unfortunately, it does make a certain sense with film. Whether the increased adhesion outweighs the mesh damage and shortened mesh life is a great consideration.
On the other hand, Autotype's instruction's merely say "Prepare the mesh thoroughly"

Almost enough here for a new thread, though I think that we may have discussed abrader in the past, along with the Autotype micro photographs of damaged threads as well as the results of using cleansing powders and their remaining embedded particles.

Cap film or indirect film...  if anyone's still using it.   

The real beef to me on stuff like this is that although film or emulsion sticks better on abraded mesh, so does ink.  Bleh.

[inkman996]

Screen abraders where recommended back in the day mostly geared towards graphic printers not textile. The thing was manufacturers would use a screen one time only and print many thousands of a run with it, they required a rock solid screen with cap film that would never break down during the run.

[Gilligan]

Just trying to make sure of what I have.

I have some pink stuff that smells cherry but it's Saati HR-6 (I think that is the number).

What is the scoop on that chemical?

[GraphicDisorder]

First, get that pink crap out of the shop.  It's an abrader.  They tried to push that stuff on me too and I told the guy I didn't want it on my screen and he had to demo it and did it anyway.  Pissed me off.

That stuff makes an AWESOME hand cleaner though...so I guess keep it for that.

If the only thing that has changed is the person, they are doing something different...watch her work.

Did somebody recharge the chems in the tank and put too much in?

Wait, it's that "The Pink Stuff" paste? With the gravely crap in it that smells like cherry candy? It's the worst. That is a degreaser AND a dehazer AND an abrader. In other words, it's screen death for statics. That means some of these screens are getting double doses of dehazer, AND the mesh is getting weakened by the abrader. No wonder the glue finally let go.

It very well could be.  I will take it out of the loop for awhile see if we get any differences.

[mk162]

no, take it out permanently.  that stuff is junk and I don't know why they continue to push it.  Look up douglas grigar's pictures about what abraders do....

https://www.google.com/search?q=douglas+grigar+abrader&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS441US441&prmd=imvnso&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=S6oSUKuJBoiq8ASa5oGABQ&ved=0CE0Q_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=906

[alan802]

Just trying to make sure of what I have.

I have some pink stuff that smells cherry but it's Saati HR-6 (I think that is the number).

What is the scoop on that chemical?

HR-6 should be the haze remover, HC-8 is the pink good smelling hand cleaner I believe.