PRODUCTION - what press actually out performs?

[Dottonedan]

I’m curious as to what you all think about actual production numbers. Like long run numbers.

If for example, Set up, and press operation is not as much a factor as printing production and long run capability, What presses outperform one another?

Fast setups have been a key reason for purchase. Ease of operator operation, fast setups.
Taking ease of operator operation and setup times out of the equations, does one press actually print an order in less time over another?


If only considering apple to apples,  (with the same knowledgeable crew), A 12 color, 16 station for example to another model with the same configuration.

People say they like the ROG for easy of setup or ease of operation. (easy to train new people quickly)
How does that compare when actually running a long run?  Like, can one be done with an order of say 20k shirts in far less time? Again, lets assume apples to apples.  Mesh to mesh, colors, squeegees all the same. Stroke speed, all of the same everything.

Does one come out ahead of the other on a long run?  Are we really only looking at setup time and ease of operation for the bulk of a purchase consideration?

[inkman996]

For the most part does it matter much anymore? Tech has improved in all machines to where they mostly can all run as fast as humans can manage to keep up with.

[Croft]

For the most part does it matter much anymore? Tech has improved in all machines to where they mostly can all run as fast as humans can manage to keep up with.

true even on our older sportsman running a smaller 3 colour left chest maintaining 600pc an hour over 20K the machine really isn't the factor , fatigue is.

[inkman996]

For the most part does it matter much anymore? Tech has improved in all machines to where they mostly can all run as fast as humans can manage to keep up with.

true even on our older sportsman running a smaller 3 colour left chest maintaining 600pc an hour over 20K the machine really isn't the factor , fatigue is.

Yep on ours we could run a left chest at about 1200 an hour, but no one here is going to do that ever. We sometimes get into the 800's but thats about the limit for fatigue reasons.

[GraphicDisorder]

We find around 700pcs a hour is what we do and its not fatiguing really. We could print faster, but I think end of the day you'd see effects of that.

[Admiral]

We do find our Sportsman 10C to be slower than our other presses (even the Sportsman 6C which is 2 years older), not by much but it's noticeable and if those printers were on another press with the same job they would go just a bit faster.

That's why I went with the Cobra press for our latest small press.  The not raising/lowering of the carousal speeds things up and is nicer with our setup (lasers overhead that don't get affected by it changing height, tack vacuum in back of the unloader platen).

[1964GN]

Lets face it, "most" shops don't get long runs 5k, 10k, 20k etc. We get a fair amount of 500-2,000 pcs orders but generally speaking, most are 48-288 pcs.

For us, and I would argue a vast majority of shops, set up times are extremely important. All of these new presses have improved index speeds. Even many older presses can comfortable run at 500-600 pcs per hour. Set up times are where they stand out, or don't.

[mk162]

Lets face it, "most" shops don't get long runs 5k, 10k, 20k etc. We get a fair amount of 500-2,000 pcs orders but generally speaking, most are 48-288 pcs.

For us, and I would argue a vast majority of shops, set up times are extremely important. All of these new presses have improved index speeds. Even many older presses can comfortable run at 500-600 pcs per hour. Set up times are where they stand out, or don't.

Correct 100%.

[Croft]

We do find our Sportsman 10C to be slower than our other presses (even the Sportsman 6C which is 2 years older), not by much but it's noticeable and if those printers were on another press with the same job they would go just a bit faster.

That's why I went with the Cobra press for our latest small press.  The not raising/lowering of the carousal speeds things up and is nicer with our setup (lasers overhead that don't get affected by it changing height, tack vacuum in back of the unloader platen).

Hi what is this "tack vacuum" you mentioned?

[Admiral]

We made our own with HVAC fans and ducting, put a standard 1" furnace filter in there and it sits just off the back of the unloader platen.

[Maxie]

We run MHM's and find them very reliable, with the S Type the screens lift up and down so the platens just turn, you can print as fast as you can load and unload.   
We don't print as fast as some, I find that excess speed affects quality, I'd rather print better, slower.
For us the big difference is set up, having a CTS (Douthitt) with MHM pins and a registered press makes set up really fast.
I don't know any other machines so I cannot compare.

[blue moon]

Does one come out ahead of the other on a long run?  Are we really only looking at setup time and ease of operation for the bulk of a purchase consideration?

yes we are. reliability and service are within tolerable limits on most presses. As much as we pick on Anatol, reality is even they will not leave you hanging. If they press is down you will get it up. If it takes an extra day to get it done, that is a small amount of printed shirts compared to printing extra 100 pieces per day.

now... there are different business models and they all have slightly different needs. Production speed also depends on how your shop is set up and how many ppl you have. Further complicating everything is the your color counts and order sizes. So order pattern for GraphicDisorder is very different from ours. Oh, you can add press size to the mix of important factors (really small presses are slightly faster to set up and run since it takes less time to walk around).

so, where does this all lead?
1. faster setup.
we were unable to get the CTS-trilock thing working. chalk it up to the screens with bushings going on ROQ presses and an older CTS unit. I will also add that our press operators have a LOT of experience and last time we measured how long it takes to set up, the difference between pre reg and what we are doing is very slight. There is room for improvement, but not as much as one would think (similar to the Film vs CTS. if you are dialed in with films the advantages of CTS are not as big). All said and done, we are upgrading our CTS this week, but mostly for the sake of speeding things up in the dark room. If we get the pre reg to work that will be a bonus.
So which pre reg is the fastest? ROQ and M&R use a similar system. comparing the MHM to those two there are pluses and minuses. If you are using an older MHM without the notches in the micros, tri lock style is a better option. If the notch is there, MHM system is a better design (bushings and pins have to be kept clean for it to work well though. not everybody does). If everything is working well, MHM with notches will set up the fastest.
2. faster production
let me preface this with saying that the difference in what a press can produce per hour is going to amount to only very low single digit percentage. once the job is set up, the brand of the press will not be a huge factor in the number of shirts being printed per hour. so what does matter? the ease of operation becomes a huge factor. Easier to operate the press, less burn out there is and higher the morale (these two factors might be completely irrelevant to some shops!). I think this is where the ROQ shines. Other presses have updated their operating system since we shopped last few years back so some of the nifty features of the ROQ might now be available on other company's equipment (got to or stroke control from the main panel for example). But one undisputed advantage still present is the cooled sensors on the digital flashes. wow, whooptee doo! Who cares? But in reality, this is huuuuge. let's back up for a sec. digital flashes eliminate the stress of staying on top of flash times. it is a constant worry about underflashing, overflashing and keeping the production at optimal speeds. Flashing was the cause of 30-40% of misprints in our shop. going digital, that extra mental stress is removed and operating the press becomes a whole lot less stressful. It also allows for much quicker training the press operators since they don't have to be taught about flash times. Now, back to the regularly scheduled programming. . . the cooled sensors. With all the other manufacturers there is a drift in the flash temperature as it gets warmer. It is caused by the sensor getting hotter and hotter during the operation. It causes the temps to drift with time and requires some small amount of adjusting/compensation. so we are back to thinking about flashes. not nearly as much as before, but it's in the back of the mind. With ROQ's cooled sensors, they are truly set and forget. the only time we make any changes is when the garment color or material dictate so, but for the most part we don't touch the flashes during the day beyond turning them on.

enough rambling, sorry. I will add that our operators have almost 20 years of experience running MHM presses and another 10-15 of running M&R. Not one would go back to anything else. But, that is us and our circumstances. average order 48 pieces, average colors 3, high quality is a must and a 3 day turnaround. your circumstances will vary.

pierre

[GraphicDisorder]

Oh, you can add press size to the mix of important factors (really small presses are slightly faster to set up and run since it takes less time to walk around).
pierre

Please walk around a smaller auto, then a larger and report back the time difference. You'll be shocked how little difference really is.

I think there are plenty of logical arguments for not having a big auto like cost, space constraints, don't want to print that many colors and so on. But how long to walk around it I have always found that one to be one of the most ridiculous.

[blue moon]

Oh, you can add press size to the mix of important factors (really small presses are slightly faster to set up and run since it takes less time to walk around).
pierre

Please walk around a smaller auto, then a larger and report back the time difference. You'll be shocked how little difference really is.

I think there are plenty of logical arguments for not having a big auto like cost, space constraints, don't want to print that many colors and so on. But how long to walk around it I have always found that one to be one of the most ridiculous.

I would think so too, but don't knock it until you try it. I will agree that it does not amount to much and I did say slightly faster, but from experience I can tell you that small presses are more nimble and and have quicker turnovers.

pierre

[3Deep]

Oh, you can add press size to the mix of important factors (really small presses are slightly faster to set up and run since it takes less time to walk around).
pierre

Please walk around a smaller auto, then a larger and report back the time difference. You'll be shocked how little difference really is.

I think there are plenty of logical arguments for not having a big auto like cost, space constraints, don't want to print that many colors and so on. But how long to walk around it I have always found that one to be one of the most ridiculous.

Gonna have to agree with Brandt on the walk around, we have a small press and some jobs takes some time and it's all about how you burn and setup your screens for registration on your press.  I think size of press matters not in how many colors you can print but how many stations you have open for cool down and flashing...a 500 pc job once around is gonna be faster on any press one time around, it might take me 1 hour maybe a little more on my press, I have 8 pallets once around where Brandt has what 18 pallets might take him only 45 minutes maybe an hour he's getting 10 more shirts printed per around.  For me all press's once you are setup to print will get the job done as fast as you can work, all the magic must start way before you get to the press.