Hirsch/MHM

[Evo]

Also note, that the "spill in Isle 5 was pertaining to a certain beast to "who shall not be named" that registered under a fake name again but has been captured and euthanized.  That might be where you are reading of some pooh pooh. Nobody else is rally saying anything horrible.  The bad man in gone now.

Thanks for keeping lookout with an internet dart gun at hand.

[GraphicDisorder]

This was a post about a situation a guy is having with a MHM.

I seen the post more like:

This was a post about a situation a guy is having with getting exactly what he ordered from a overseas manufacture and to make it more complicated the manufacture has visited and after 2 presses its still not right.  I didn't even use MHM in my original reply, nor do I think they are a bad company in any way, never said anything remotely like that.  However, there seems to be a lot of issues with presses coming from overseas (not specifically MHM but in general).  Be it sales/service/support/or the actual press working like it's suppose to.  So I was just touching on that. 

Distance clearly complicates things...... 

I think the reason you see a lot of M&R posting is because thats what most people use.  Laws of averages.  If as a whole the world sells more red cars, you will see more red cars.  If M&R sells the most presses and those customers are happy, I am sure you will hear a lot about that.

Brandt,

I am not trying to start anything here. I am just curious, You sound like you know M&Rs service really well. What would M&R do different with their local service?

I spent a considerable amount of time talking to shops before a made my press purchase.  My largest question for all of these people other than how did they like the machines, was how was the service/support.  I talked to more than one shop from each manufacture I had on my list, some manufactures I called several shops each, double digits on some even.  I couldn't find a single unhappy M&R Customer, I am sure some exist, don't doubt it for a second.  I didn't find one though, and the service/support question was all rave reviews.  In contrast, one thing that was consistent for many of the shops I talked to with overseas presses was "we love/like our press, but when it breaks we have to wait, or they service is harder to reach than id like" or similar type answers.  Again a generalization, but heard over and over again.

So take it for whatever you like, but I did my homework on this the best I could.  I didn't take any manufacture at their word, I didn't call shops they wanted me to call, I called people I wanted to call.  Most very helpful!

[alan802]

I can say when I was researching autos for those few years, I thought the best thing I did was talk to other shops about their auto and how they liked it.  I still have those notes I took somewhere in my messy desk and I could go back through those notes and tell you exactly which brands got the better marks on service after the sale.  Two companies in particular were repeat offenders with the issue of getting technical help when they needed it, but we'll just leave that alone as to not ruffle any more feathers.  And I'll go ahead and disclose that I've heard from several different people that RPM wasn't the greatest about tech support after the sale but I've called Rick probably 50 times over the past 2.5 years, 2 of them needing technical support and the other 48 were just to shoot the crap or a mentoring type conversation and I've never not gotten to talk to him right away or at least within an hour or two.  And he's pretty much just a 1 man show trying to do too much and I've never gotten the impression that I wouldn't be taken care of in a hurry if I needed it.  I guess if it went down at 2am then I'd have to wait a while but thankfully we aren't that kind of shop yet so 24 hour support isn't something I'm going to be concerned about any time soon.  The other 2 companies that have issues with support should not have any excuses to not give great support after the sale, especially the larger of the two companies.

[Sbrem]

I said straight up if you never want to be in this situation again buy an M&R. It's the same logic as not buying a rare Yugoslavian truck to deliver lumber in the US every day. Even if the truck is badass and makes cool noises. Common as dirt can be a very good thing.

This makes way to much sense, people will ignore it.   

a little too simplistic, I've had US companies fail me no matter how much they have in stock or how many technicians they have. I compared the MHM we have dead on to the M&R at buying time, and there was nothing to think about, get the MHM. And I do think M&R makes a great product, with great service. But in comparing the 2, it was no-brainer. Again, the film placement unit makes the Trilock a joke, even though it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, if you have the M&R...

[244]

If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is. Might make you think twice about the Triloc .no attachments for the frames, any type of frame works,can set up and test print on the Chameleon or Sidewinder, figure out what sequence you want to print in after pulling a few samples in about two minutes, and then throw the screens into the auto without cleaning out the ink and be up and running in a couple minutes. Thats no joke in my book!

[ebscreen]

I'd bet ten bucks that M&R under the same circumstances would have had the problem solved in 1 maybe 2 days. And the tech wouldn't have to check his passport.

And Brandt, while I generally agree with what you're saying, before you go getting all gung ho about your brand/purchase, one of these days when I don't feel like fishing I'll make a video of the things my press can do that others can't.

 I would also be very surprised if there are print arms, supports or any other major mechanical  parts for any MHM press stocked in the US. Hell what type of cylinders/proxy sensors are they using on the E-Types?

As for the FPU vs the Triloc, I think MHM wins on this one solely due to usability. I can't tell you how many shops I've seen where the Triloc sits dusty in the corner. It's just that there is so much more involved with the carrier sheets and pallet that most people think it's too much extra work. Which is of course false and their loss, but the path of least resistance is usually most followed.  The FPU system is simple and elegant and requires no further materials or processes than would be required to simply tape a film to a screen.

M&R should buy MHM and the Challenger S-type would leave very little doubt.

[jsheridan]

M&R should buy MHM and the Challenger S-type would leave very little doubt.

flip up print heads on the challengers with single lever actuated squeegee/flood angles and 3" of vertical screen travel.. we can dream right

[Evo]

I can't tell you how many shops I've seen where the Triloc sits dusty in the corner. It's just that there is so much more involved with the carrier sheets and pallet that most people think it's too much extra work.

Actually I think the Achilles heal of the Tri-Loc is that many shops (heck...most?) don't keep the damn presses dialed in enough to make it work properly. If you take the initial time and care to streamline and refine your process, the Tri-Loc works amazingly well. Carrier sheets are really a non-issue - in fact, if you like to catalog films and not screens, they rock. (register a repeat job correctly ONCE, and it will always burn registered)

[Dottonedan]

If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is. Might make you think twice about the Triloc .no attachments for the frames, any type of frame works,can set up and test print on the Chameleon or Sidewinder, figure out what sequence you want to print in after pulling a few samples in about two minutes, and then throw the screens into the auto without cleaning out the ink and be up and running in a couple minutes. Thats no joke in my book!

I don't know a thing about fixing presses or what one is best, but I do know that when I worked at Park Printing before it was bought out by Fortune Fashion, we sampled everything on a chameleon and from there, it went on to any one of our 4 other M&R presses. We could even take one job down, walk over and set it up on a another press if we needed to at a very decent time. We were horrible at setup times before we had a 'come to Jesus" moment. We knew our setup times were bad.

While setting up another new press, Rich and about 5 crew were with us and they taught every one of our setup people how to use the tri-loc system accurately. It cut our times in half. I'm not 100% sure, but I think we got down to about 20-25 min to set up a 14 color print, give or take 5 min due to not being involved in that closely. I don't know if thats good for other people and different processes or not. Not knowing what the MHM does. Pierre told me, but I don't remember the specifics.

I remember when I first came to Park Printing, and the plant Mgr telling me we used to take 80-120 minutes for a 14 color setup till the law was laid down. I think tho, that they (M&R crew) had set it up faster than the 20-25 min. but our people were not as good at it. Most were little middle aged ladies that just wanted to make a buck and go home.

You could tho, take any set of screens and run it over to another press and re-setup to complete and order. Maybe even duplicate it and run it on two presses at the same time. We would juggle orders and presses at times when accommodating rush orders.

[jsheridan]

This can put 14 color setups in perspective for some..

At last time mesaure.. It takes us 11.38 minutes to 'make' a screen ready for press. This includes every step in pre-press before a printers hand loads the screen in press. It took an hour at best to set those 14 screens then regi for a test print. Usually it took upwards of 2 hours.

That's over 4.5 hrs of labor and materials into the job, just to set it up.

It now takes 2.85 minutes per screen to set up and print with triloc. This is from screen in head to printed image. They can't get the old job out of the way quick enough to load the new one. It's created it's own set of problems but that's a different story.

Our time now is 3.3 hrs of labor. That's one heck of a time savings for just one job in one day.. do that twice a day for a week and you just gained an entire day worth of printing time!

Oh yeah.. let me add that we needed to sample the order first. Print then take screens out, print other jobs while proofed, re-do 2 screens for the approval and re-set with inky and new clean screens and was back up and printing in 2.85 min per screen.

[GraphicDisorder]

And Brandt, while I generally agree with what you're saying, before you go getting all gung ho about your brand/purchase, one of these days when I don't feel like fishing I'll make a video of the things my press can do that others can't.

That's just it, it's not even me being gung ho so much about my purchase as it's just seeing this same theme over and over again with other purchases that the common thing is overseas manufacture.  Over the last couple of years, publicly we have seen a lot of drama with some overseas manufactures.

As far as what your press can do that others can't, I have probably already seen it.  All I really care about in my shop is that my press runs day in and day out and its fast to set up, fast to tear down, and I have support team behind it if I ever need it.  My press does that, it wasn't dropped off a truck, it wasn't shipped with wrong pallets, it prints the size or more that it was suppose to, it was on time or early, it was the price it was suppose to be, it prints shirts.....  Which all seems like what we all should be able to say.  Apparently not everyone can though, that's a shame. 

Again I am sure MHM is making the situation right, they seem like a upstanding company.  My postings haven't really been about MHM....more so a generalization. 

[alan802]

I love the MHM FPU so I made one that works like it but uses the triloc stop points.  I like the triloc pallet jig so I made one similar and I married the two together to make a system that takes the best of both worlds and it works better than I could have imagined.  I still have to make adjustments on it so that it will last forever, I just made a working prototype to test it out and see if and where it needed additional refinement.  I'd love to see M&R with all of their badass tools and engineers take what I did and manufacture one like it.  It would be a killer product.  Imagine having a triloc system where it takes 5 seconds or so to attach the film to the screen.

[Sbrem]

If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is. Might make you think twice about the Triloc .no attachments for the frames, any type of frame works,can set up and test print on the Chameleon or Sidewinder, figure out what sequence you want to print in after pulling a few samples in about two minutes, and then throw the screens into the auto without cleaning out the ink and be up and running in a couple minutes. Thats no joke in my book!

Hi Rich, I guess using the word "joke" was in poor taste, and I apologize for that. Now, I can figure out print order without setting it up on another press first, and if I do have to change the order, the screens change over in a few seconds, no jive. Also, I don't have a second MHM, but if I did, I would simply get the FPU for it and be done. We do have an older Gauntlet, and like it very much, but when we're slower in the winter, it doesn't get turned on, not that it's a fair comparison (the MHM is 10 years newer) other than the machine that sets up faster gets the nod. Again, sorry for the poor choice of words...

Steve

[Screened Gear]

If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is.

Rich am I missing something here? You use the same FPU for all MHM presses. If both presses are set to all Zeros you should be able to move a job off one and to the next with no registration problems. I can move a screen from head 1 to head 2 without the registration being messed up. There is no difference in another head on my one press to another press if they are set up right and are on all zeros.

[ZooCity]

If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is.

Rich am I missing something here? You use the same FPU for all MHM presses. If both presses are set to all Zeros you should be able to move a job off one and to the next with no registration problems. I can move a screen from head 1 to head 2 without the registration being messed up. There is no difference in another head on my one press to another press if they are set up right and are on all zeros.

I think Rich may have been pointing out the benefit of using a platen jig.   Wherever you take that jig well, there it is, exact same point(s) of contact on any machine, any arm.   I know most see using a platen jig as an inconvenience but it probably shines on multiple machines because of this point.   Provided, of course, that your machines are all somewhat calibrated to one another.

I imagine MHM's are built to tolerance that allows you to swap screens machine to machine with the bushing system.  Most machines probably are not however and a platen jig makes much more sense.

One really good point about the tri-lock is how freaking versatile the simple 3 point system is.  Our Newman Pin-lock can't be used with anything but newmans (unless you did some serious modifying to other frames), the MHM bushings only work on MHM autos.  That single tri-lock platen can run all over the shop.  In fact, I've though about it and if we had an MHM I would actually require a tri-lock type jig as a secondary system to use for manual sampling or if you had any other brand of auto in the house.  You could align films with the FPU and use the 3 point jig to register on the non-MHMs.

BTW, this has turned into an excellent thread, very glad I decided to read it.