Hirsch/MHM

[ebscreen]

Interesting note, got a call Monday from a company that purchased a new E-Type from
Hirsch. Machine was banged up in transit, but still operable. Tech set it up, damn thing
wouldn't register. Hirsch sent a replacement. Tech set it up, wouldn't register. MHM sends
a tech over from Austria to fix it. Still won't register. I'm assuming center shaft issue or someone is
overlooking something obvious or asdf threw some sand in the mix when in Austria.
All the while Hirsch is dragging ass to help.

Shop owners worst nightmare, press won't register. Only guy that can('t) fix it flies from
Austria. The fella asked my feelings about it and I told him that if I wasn't technically savvy,
and if I didn't plan on having two machines, I wouldn't buy an MHM. You sacrifice support
and parts availability for a beautifully operating and incredibly fast machine. Guess which
one is more important when your press is down? 1200 pieces/hr and 5 minute setups are useless
when the machine won't work right.

Just some thoughts.

[blue moon]

well, I have not heard anything about this and it is very surprising. My thinking is that they can keep doing what they are doing until the press is up and running. How long has this been going on?

As far as the down time and parts, our experience has been just the opposite. I screwed up some parts twice and had the replacements in no time. Also no problems getting somebody on the phone to walk me through any issues. We only had one instance where the part failed on it's own and the tech spent and hour on the phoen with me troubleshooting it (and the press was out of warranty at that point). Once we confirmed the bad sensor (which was what he said in the beginning) the replacement was here the next day and up and running that afternoon. So that's one break down in three years. Now I will give you that Rich will call you in the middle of the night and bend over backwards to help. His level of service is beyond anything I have seen before, but as far as support, I really don't see any issues with the MHM you are bringing up. But . . . I am a sample size of one, somebody else's experiences might be different.

pierre

[ebscreen]

Let me be clear, I'm not trying to dig on Hirsch/MHM (well maybe Hirsch) that would be like pooping in my own backyard.
But what I am saying is that this is unfortunately the reality for this guy, and a few others I have heard of, and that's
an absolute nightmare. I don't know what's going on, but I believe Screened Gear had a registration issue with his press
as well?

What I'm saying is that if you buy a new press you expect it to work and if it doesn't you expect the company that sold it
to you to take care of it and if they try and fail and then give up and pass blame to the manufacturer (reasonably so, I suppose)
and the manufacturer tries and fails to make it right well that just plain sucks and does not give me any confidence in any of the product
supply chain involved with the brand. And that's my brand damnit.

[alan802]

I have heard similar things in the past but it seems like it's becoming less and less.  I think it's getting better than it was 2-3 years ago. I still believe their product to be one of the best though but I do feel they have a ways to go in this area.  I wish all service could be half as good as M&R, even my brand of choice, but for some reason nobody really comes close.

[Screened Gear]

I believe Screened Gear had a registration issue with his press as well?

It’s a small world. I have talked to this guy on the phone. Really nice guy just got in a nightmare of a situation. The first press he got was dropped in shipping, you can’t do anything about that. Then the second would not register. I think 2 boards were off consistently. That should be the registration blocks. When I talked to him he was having Wolfgang out to fix that. I never heard that it wasn't able to be fixed. I have to say it is frustrating when you drop money on something and then find out something is wrong with it. You lose confidence in it and get scared it will never register. This was how I felt when I had the issue with my e-type. Then everything was fixed and it took me awhile to trust that it was going to register jobs. Well my press is fixed and is dead on. When I talked to this guy it sounded like Hirsch/MHM/SCH are all doing everything they can to fix the situation.

Now I want to clear up a few things. My press was a used press (no warrantee). The guy that owned the press before me moved the registration blocks trying it fix bad registration. The registration blocks are set at the factory and are good for the life of the machine if they are not moved. My press had a bad registration pin. It would move just a hair causing bad registration on all the board inconsistently. Rodney from Hirsch figured it out right way when we was setting the press up. I have to say that Hirsch really helped me out of a bad situation with my press. Rodney and Gavin both went way above what I expected to make sure my press was done right. I am only one situation and I am sure every manufacture has good and bad stories.

[ebscreen]

I was only mentioning your situation in the technical context/similarities, not the support side.
You don't hear of many new machines that have registration problems.

From what he told me on the phone, Wolfgang could not fix the problem, and he was at the point
of telling them to take everything away and go with a different company, or have them send out
another press.

Folks I have an MHM too, I'm not bashing, just relaying. Jeesh, this ain't Ford vs Chevy.

[GraphicDisorder]

I think its a obvious trade off.  When I was considering my purchase it was obvious to me that none of them could provide the same level of service and support as M&R.

So while it might be cool to save 45 seconds on your set up, it sure does suck when you have to wait days or weeks on a guy to fly from out of the country to fix your press, or a part to ride a boat, or a press that doesn't do as its advertised and so on.  Let's also not forget the lost production time when you buy the thing to start with.  Buying a press that takes 12 weeks or like some of the new stuff that people have waited many months for or even a year for (Not naming names, you know who you are though), you have lost at times easily the cost of the machine in waiting for it to show up in lost production time.

I don't understand how some arrive at their choice....

[ebscreen]

Oh, one other thing. I don't believe the "registration blocks good for a lifetime" thing at all.

On the S-Types (and I think the E's?) the registration blocks are also used to index the pallets.
that right there is significant force. Second, other than a rare sample of Unobtanium, I don't think
there is a material hard enough to withstand a registration pin inserting and withdrawing several
thousand times a day, forever.

Luckily, once you get past the gut wrenching fear and technical hurdles, registering a press
is not that difficult. Tedious yes, but not past most competent folks abilities.

[Screened Gear]

Oh, one other thing. I don't believe the "registration blocks good for a lifetime" thing at all.

On the S-Types (and I think the E's?) the registration blocks are also used to index the pallets.
that right there is significant force. Second, other than a rare sample of Unobtanium, I don't think
there is a material hard enough to withstand a registration pin inserting and withdrawing several
thousand times a day, forever.

Luckily, once you get past the gut wrenching fear and technical hurdles, registering a press
is not that difficult. Tedious yes, but not past most competent folks abilities.

I am not a MHM expert but I would like to explain a few things that you pointed out from my point of view.

On the e-type the registration blocks are not used in the rotating of the table. The movement of the table is done at the bottom of the press. There are positioning blocks at the bottom that a pin moves into (it makes a cool air sound) then the table is moved to the next position by a motorized arm (also a cool sound). This is when the registration pin locks into the registration block on the upper part of the press by the table. The only damage that can be done to the registration block or pin is when the pin moves into the registration block. There is no side to side force on these parts so very little chance of damage.

You can't reregister an e-type press (maybe all MHM presses) by yourself. I have seen it done and even if you could get the blocks reset you need a tech to reset the press to use the new position of the blocks. If you don't the press would run very rough. The bottom part that moves the table will set the table in position for the pin to drop into the registration block. If you move the blocks and not reset the press the pin would not line up and bang the registration block. The tech fine tunes the press for a long time after the press is reregistered.

I hope I got this all correct.

[blue moon]

So while it might be cool to save 45 seconds on your set up, it sure does suck when you have to wait days or weeks on a guy to fly from out of the country to fix your press, or a part to ride a boat, or a press that doesn't do as its advertised and so on.  Let's also not forget the lost production time when you buy the thing to start with.  Buying a press that takes 12 weeks or like some of the new stuff that people have waited many months for or even a year for (Not naming names, you know who you are though), you have lost at times easily the cost of the machine in waiting for it to show up in lost production time.

I don't understand how some arrive at their choice....

I am going to strongly disagree with you on this one. This is the first time that I heard of press being down and needing a tech from Austria to get it up and running. And we still don't know what is going on, it could be another shipping company snafu.

Parts are available in US and come in next day if needed. The only way you are going to get them faster is if you live by the manufacturer and can drive and pick up the part yourself.

As far as not doing what is advertised, you might have MHM confused with another brand! What exactly are you talking about here?

There is a waiting period for a lot of stuff out there. MHM presses are in stock and can be delivered pretty quickly unless something has to be custom made. I will give you that if it has to be shipped from Austria it will take longer to get here, but for the most part press purchases are not an impulse buy and are delivered when needed. What do you know about ppl waiting? I'd like to know. I am planning on another press soon and based on my experiences there is no doubt what I am getting, but again, I am a sample of one and would like to know what somebody else had issues with.


There might not be much hard evidence out there, but ppl I talked to, even if they were not running MHM's, agreed that it is the most reliable press on the market. That translates into less down time than anybody else and if you add the shorter setup times it does produce more per dollar than the competition. I will absolutely agree that in a case of some catastrophic failure it might take longer to get it back up, but those are so rare that I have not heard of one ever. All of the issues we have heard of before this one are caused by the operators rather than the press/manufacturer. The customer with the press that was dropped is the first ever I heard that it was MHM's fault. This is not to say that their product is perfect, as nobody's is, but as far as reliability they beat anything else on the market. Your personal choice then becomes, do you want a press that will break more often and the support is going to be faster or something that will break less and there is a short delay in getting the support.

pierre

[inkman996]

Pierre thanks for cleaning up the garbage, but I think in the process something happened to the Custom ink swatch thread it is throwing up an internal 500 error.

[alan802]

I'd love to know who exactly has the most reliable press on the market.  Just from having a small finger on the pulse I'd have to say it would be M&R and from my personal experience the RPM is pretty hardy.  I know we only have 2.5 years and 500K impressions to go off of but 10 minutes of down time in that time period says a little bit.  I think the few issues I've heard about MHM were from people who have it out for them.  At this point, knowing the MHM better than I do a TAS, Falcon or a few obscure press makers, they are in my top 3.  Nothing against the E, but I think where MHM shines is the S and 4000 models.  I'd still take an RPM over the E type despite the recent shakeup but I do have a certain affinity to the MHM machines and do understand fully the love that those shop owners have for their MHM's.  I have recently seen an E-type up close and personal and it was a solid machine. 

[blue moon]

I'd love to know who exactly has the most reliable press on the market.  Just from having a small finger on the pulse I'd have to say it would be M&R and from my personal experience the RPM is pretty hardy.  I know we only have 2.5 years and 500K impressions to go off of but 10 minutes of down time in that time period says a little bit.  I think the few issues I've heard about MHM were from people who have it out for them.  At this point, knowing the MHM better than I do a TAS, Falcon or a few obscure press makers, they are in my top 3.  Nothing against the E, but I think where MHM shines is the S and 4000 models.  I'd still take an RPM over the E type despite the recent shakeup but I do have a certain affinity to the MHM machines and do understand fully the love that those shop owners have for their MHM's.  I have recently seen an E-type up close and personal and it was a solid machine.

I don't even know if it would be possible to quantify the reliability, thus my statement before. My opinion comes from ppl that have run MHM's before and are running M&R presses now and the other way around. Also to be honest, it is quite possible that they went into older machines from newer MHMs, but everybody I talked to that ran MHMs said they were the most reliable press they used. My experience seems to back this up as the only down time in three years was what ever was needed to troubleshoot and replace a sensor. We've had to reboot the press several times which might amount to 20 additional minutes.

Now I want to be perfectly clear here, this is not a knock on M&R on any other press out there! The issue I have, and please somebody correct me if I am wrong, is that MHM is being portrayed as an unstable platform with bad service which could not be further from the truth.

pierre

[GraphicDisorder]

I am going to strongly disagree with you on this one. This is the first time that I heard of press being down and needing a tech from Austria to get it up and running. 

Once could be enough to scare me off, I don't have that type of time.....or patience. 

Parts are available in US and come in next day if needed. The only way you are going to get them faster is if you live by the manufacturer and can drive and pick up the part yourself.

I can think of parts that I bet are not sitting on US Soil for many overseas manufactures.  I have heard of people clipping a press with a fork lift, thus needing a print arm.  You think MHM has a spare one for you on US soil for your press?  I bet M&R does.  Take that for what it's worth.  Is it likely you'd need a print arm?  No, but I think it illustrates the point I am making.  Plus who doesn't like to buy from american companies when they can.  I sure do when its possible. 

As far as not doing what is advertised, you might have MHM confused with another brand! What exactly are you talking about here?

My post wasn't really directed at MHM, more a generalization of the drama some have to go through with overseas press suppliers.  This post is a example of that.  No need to read into it, just a observation.  MHM has always been a fine manufacture.  I never said any differently. 

There is a waiting period for a lot of stuff out there. MHM presses are in stock and can be delivered pretty quickly unless something has to be custom made. I will give you that if it has to be shipped from Austria it will take longer to get here, but for the most part press purchases are not an impulse buy and are delivered when needed. What do you know about ppl waiting? I'd like to know. I am planning on another press soon and based on my experiences there is no doubt what I am getting, but again, I am a sample of one and would like to know what somebody else had issues with.

Again my post was a generalization of overseas press suppliers.  Seems many of them are 8-12 weeks at best, a year or more, or never at worst.  I think that in itself is enough to make me stay away.  I am a small timer and I printed enough in the time some have waited for their press that I could have paid for mine in cash in that time frame.  So it's food for thought.  MHM I am sure is on the up and up though and presses are actually delivered when ordered and roughly on time. 

There might not be much hard evidence out there, but ppl I talked to, even if they were not running MHM's, agreed that it is the most reliable press on the market. That translates into less down time than anybody else and if you add the shorter setup times it does produce more per dollar than the competition. I will absolutely agree that in a case of some catastrophic failure it might take longer to get it back up, but those are so rare that I have not heard of one ever. All of the issues we have heard of before this one are caused by the operators rather than the press/manufacturer. The customer with the press that was dropped is the first ever I heard that it was MHM's fault. This is not to say that their product is perfect, as nobody's is, but as far as reliability they beat anything else on the market. Your personal choice then becomes, do you want a press that will break more often and the support is going to be faster or something that will break less and there is a short delay in getting the support.

pierre

I don't think anyone has any hard data to say who is the most reliable.  But M&R is always in that discussion near or at the top to anyone I talk to.  Also when deciding who is most reliable, it would fail me to not take into consideration who can repair a issue the fastest.  M&R has more support staff than anyone...period.  M&R's support team is larger than many press manufacture companies probably......

I think you know my over all point, and its not directly about MHM.  Don't have to defend them so hard.  I think they are a great press, it was even the first press I looked at.

[Sbrem]

Thanks to the mods for cleaning the spill in aisle 5. As an owner of both MHM and M&R, they are both great machines and are well backed. We've had our MHM Synchroprint over 8 years now, we may have lost 3 days in that time, pretty good record I think. The film placement unit alone is the very best registration unit I've seen, hands down. Our M&R Gauntlet S, '94, keeps up fine, but requires a lot more maintenance, mostly due to age I think. We have never had service trouble with the MHM, no matter who the reps were. When we bought it, we were dealing with them directly, out of Spartansburg, NC.

Steve