replacement elements for old Cincinnati dryer

[Sbrem]

Hey All, we have moved, (what a bear) and our new voltage is 208, and our old Cincinnati Demon wants 230. So, we have the choice of adding buck boosters to each phase, or replace those 30+ year old elements, which should be considerably less expensive. I've sent an email to Intek, but any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

Steve

[Admiral]

If the dryer isn't too power hungry, the buck boosters shouldn't be too expensive - how power hungry is that dryer?

We have to use them (on 2 of 3 phases) for our automatic presses since our voltage is too high - 244-248V instead of 235V. 

[californiadreamin]

Hey All, we have moved, (what a bear) and our new voltage is 208, and our old Cincinnati Demon wants 230. So, we have the choice of adding buck boosters to each phase, or replace those 30+ year old elements, which should be considerably less expensive. I've sent an email to Intek, but any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

Steve

I would hook up just as is. It will not hurt dryer if voltage is as you say. Will not get as hot as if you used
230 v , but is with in code tolerance to operate. Might take a little longer a minute or so to get up to temp
But should operate fine as is once you get up to temp.
Good Luck
Winston
904.3430848

[ScreenFoo]

I was just going to mention that the last time I got a panel to retrofit an old flash cure unit I found out Intek just rates everything at 240VAC, and then you have to do the math to figure out your panel wattage if your line voltage is lower. 

Really it's only a big deal if the power supply for the control circuitry really needs 240, but that would seem pretty rare to me as well.
A high quality industrial SMPS these days is easily found with a large input range, like 80-250VAC.

[Sbrem]

If the dryer isn't too power hungry, the buck boosters shouldn't be too expensive - how power hungry is that dryer?

We have to use them (on 2 of 3 phases) for our automatic presses since our voltage is too high - 244-248V instead of 235V.

It is hooked up; at 3 phase it draws 40 amps. It's getting the amperage, but the lower voltage doesn't have enough "push" to get the elements up to heat, so the belt is running half speed, not acceptable. Elements, I can change myself, buck boosters, I'll leave to a pro, which may be more expensive of course, I know I would be.

Steve

[Northland]

I was just going to mention that the last time I got a panel to retrofit an old flash cure unit I found out Intek just rates everything at 240VAC, and then you have to do the math to figure out your panel wattage if your line voltage is lower. 

Really it's only a big deal if the power supply for the control circuitry really needs 240, but that would seem pretty rare to me as well.
A high quality industrial SMPS these days is easily found with a large input range, like 80-250VAC.

Motor loads are the typically the greatest concern with lower voltage ..... a 10% voltage drop means the starting torque will be at least 20% lower.
In this case... a low torque motor (like a fan) should run fine. And as Winston stated... the heat elements will take a little longer to come up to temperature, but should reach operating temperature and cycle normally.

If you have a single phase air compressor..... you may need boost transformers.

[Sbrem]

I get what you're saying, I get the theory a little, but it's not getting hot enough to do the job, no matter what the science says. The voltmeter says 208, and the ammeter says 40 amps. We just got the quote on the buck boosters, $1200+, ouch, but I'll check with some element distributors to see if we can find elements.

Steve

[cbjamel]

Check at the dryer and make sure you are getting all 3 legs. Sounds like your not if belt is running slow and the elements are slow heating up, also maybe to small of wire to the dryer or to far from panel.

Might be wrong.
 If you can get a clamp meter to see what each leg is drawing will also give you idea how its doing. Specifically the amp side.
Shane

[Sbrem]

Check at the dryer and make sure you are getting all 3 legs. Sounds like your not if belt is running slow and the elements are slow heating up, also maybe to small of wire to the dryer or to far from panel.

Might be wrong.
 If you can get a clamp meter to see what each leg is drawing will also give you idea how its doing. Specifically the amp side.
Shane

We did that; well, our electrician did that while I watched. Now, since I don't remember this from the other day, (I have a lot on my mind) What would be the draw for each of the 3 legs? For a unit whose legend plate says it draws 39 amps? Is it as simple as 13 per leg or there abouts? I seem to hazily remember that 

Steve

and thanks everyone

[cbjamel]

Aproximately10-13 except when panels kick on then maybe more. 2-4amps aprox Per leg.
Shane

[Northland]

Check at the dryer and make sure you are getting all 3 legs. Sounds like your not if belt is running slow and the elements are slow heating up, also maybe to small of wire to the dryer or to far from panel.

Might be wrong.
 If you can get a clamp meter to see what each leg is drawing will also give you idea how its doing. Specifically the amp side.
Shane

We did that; well, our electrician did that while I watched. Now, since I don't remember this from the other day, (I have a lot on my mind) What would be the draw for each of the 3 legs? For a unit whose legend plate says it draws 39 amps? Is it as simple as 13 per leg or there abouts? I seem to hazily remember that 

Steve

and thanks everyone

If the nameplate lists the Amperage as 39 amps (at 240 volts) you should see approximately 34 amps per leg, when connected to a reduced voltage of 208 volts. Sometimes an equipment nameplate will list the amperage for both voltages... in a format that looks like this 34A/39A and 208V/240V.

If the dryer elements are configured correctly, for 3 phase, you should see about the same amperage (39A) on all 3 supply conductors. There could be minor differences (a couple amps) in each conductor amperage because some of the dryer load is probably single phase (fan & conveyor motor).

Did your electrician reconfigure the heating element wiring when converting the dryer to 3 phase (or was this dryer always used on a 3 phase system) ??

For people looking for a good, inexpensive, sturdy tool for troubleshooting electrical circuits... I'd recommend this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006Z3GZU/ref=twister_B06W57QS6F?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

[Sbrem]

Check at the dryer and make sure you are getting all 3 legs. Sounds like your not if belt is running slow and the elements are slow heating up, also maybe to small of wire to the dryer or to far from panel.

Might be wrong.
 If you can get a clamp meter to see what each leg is drawing will also give you idea how its doing. Specifically the amp side.
Shane

We did that; well, our electrician did that while I watched. Now, since I don't remember this from the other day, (I have a lot on my mind) What would be the draw for each of the 3 legs? For a unit whose legend plate says it draws 39 amps? Is it as simple as 13 per leg or there abouts? I seem to hazily remember that 

Steve

and thanks everyone

If the nameplate lists the Amperage as 39 amps (at 240 volts) you should see approximately 34 amps per leg, when connected to a reduced voltage of 208 volts. Sometimes an equipment nameplate will list the amperage for both voltages... in a format that looks like this 34A/39A and 208V/240V.

If the dryer elements are configured correctly, for 3 phase, you should see about the same amperage (39A) on all 3 supply conductors. There could be minor differences (a couple amps) in each conductor amperage because some of the dryer load is probably single phase (fan & conveyor motor).

Did your electrician reconfigure the heating element wiring when converting the dryer to 3 phase (or was this dryer always used on a 3 phase system) ??

For people looking for a good, inexpensive, sturdy tool for troubleshooting electrical circuits... I'd recommend this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006Z3GZU/ref=twister_B06W57QS6F?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

He changed nothing, essentially we moved in and "plugged it in" somewhere else. It was always 3 phase. Properly run drops. However, there is conflicting info here, as I have 2 guys that say the 39 amps would be divided, roughly, per leg, but you have it at full current on each leg. BTW, the legend plate shows 49A in single phase. We're still trying to decide, as I was wrong on the buck booster quote I put up earlier, it's actually $2300.

Steve

[Northland]

Check at the dryer and make sure you are getting all 3 legs. Sounds like your not if belt is running slow and the elements are slow heating up, also maybe to small of wire to the dryer or to far from panel.

Might be wrong.
 If you can get a clamp meter to see what each leg is drawing will also give you idea how its doing. Specifically the amp side.
Shane

We did that; well, our electrician did that while I watched. Now, since I don't remember this from the other day, (I have a lot on my mind) What would be the draw for each of the 3 legs? For a unit whose legend plate says it draws 39 amps? Is it as simple as 13 per leg or there abouts? I seem to hazily remember that 

Steve

and thanks everyone

If the nameplate lists the Amperage as 39 amps (at 240 volts) you should see approximately 34 amps per leg, when connected to a reduced voltage of 208 volts. Sometimes an equipment nameplate will list the amperage for both voltages... in a format that looks like this 34A/39A and 208V/240V.

If the dryer elements are configured correctly, for 3 phase, you should see about the same amperage (39A) on all 3 supply conductors. There could be minor differences (a couple amps) in each conductor amperage because some of the dryer load is probably single phase (fan & conveyor motor).

Did your electrician reconfigure the heating element wiring when converting the dryer to 3 phase (or was this dryer always used on a 3 phase system) ??

For people looking for a good, inexpensive, sturdy tool for troubleshooting electrical circuits... I'd recommend this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006Z3GZU/ref=twister_B06W57QS6F?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

He changed nothing, essentially we moved in and "plugged it in" somewhere else. It was always 3 phase. Properly run drops. However, there is conflicting info here, as I have 2 guys that say the 39 amps would be divided, roughly, per leg, but you have it at full current on each leg. BTW, the legend plate shows 49A in single phase. We're still trying to decide, as I was wrong on the buck booster quote I put up earlier, it's actually $2300.

Steve

Well.... If it helps you decide whom to believe, I'd suggest you factor in my 40+ years in the electrical trade (currently holding an A-Master license in the state of Minnesota) 
Happily retired from that occupation, in 2016 

In regards to the nameplate current ratings:
The higher amperage rating (49A) when connected to single phase power can be attributed to only two conductors carrying load.
When connected to a 3 phase source, there are three conductors carrying the load... hence the lower amperage draw .
If you think of it in "plumbing" terms you'd have three pipes (3 phase) vs 2 pipes (single phase).

It might be helpful to think about this issue in wattage terms:
When connected to single phase power, the math would be.... 240V X 49A = 11,760 watts
When connected to 208Volt 3 phase power, the math would be 208V X 39A X 1.73 = 14,030 watts
When connected to 240Volt 3 phase power, the math would be 240V X 39A X 1.73 = 16,193 watts
The 1.73 factor is a result of having the third power carrying conductor (vs 2 power conductors in a simple single phase source).
So.... as Winston pointed out in his observation the power (heat output) would be only slightly lower on the 208 Volt source (in this case about 15% -or- 2000 watts.

Here's another troubleshooting approach, for your consideration, what other 240 volt equipment has been negatively impacted by the move (to a lower voltage source).
Does your 240 volt air compressor run OK ?
If your flash is 240 volt, does it operate correctly ?
The one really puzzling fact (to me) is that your belt speed has been affected.... that makes me think there's problem such as:
-- A bad connection at the breaker
-- A bad connection at the cord/plug connection
-- A blown fuse in the dryer
Of course, any of those conditions would also effect the heat output to a large extent.

Sorry.... I can't be definitive in a diagnosis.... Good luck

[californiadreamin]

Northland is 100% correct in his thinking!
There is a possible new problem.
You said origional voltage was 230 v.
On a 230v to 208v . Not the best but ok.
I am now reading in other post 240v. If it is infact 240v then 208v
Is not good. The nichrome element will not generate enough heat.
At 230v you are within tolerance.
Winston

[Sbrem]

Check at the dryer and make sure you are getting all 3 legs. Sounds like your not if belt is running slow and the elements are slow heating up, also maybe to small of wire to the dryer or to far from panel.

Might be wrong.
 If you can get a clamp meter to see what each leg is drawing will also give you idea how its doing. Specifically the amp side.
Shane

We did that; well, our electrician did that while I watched. Now, since I don't remember this from the other day, (I have a lot on my mind) What would be the draw for each of the 3 legs? For a unit whose legend plate says it draws 39 amps? Is it as simple as 13 per leg or there abouts? I seem to hazily remember that 

Steve

and thanks everyone

If the nameplate lists the Amperage as 39 amps (at 240 volts) you should see approximately 34 amps per leg, when connected to a reduced voltage of 208 volts. Sometimes an equipment nameplate will list the amperage for both voltages... in a format that looks like this 34A/39A and 208V/240V.

If the dryer elements are configured correctly, for 3 phase, you should see about the same amperage (39A) on all 3 supply conductors. There could be minor differences (a couple amps) in each conductor amperage because some of the dryer load is probably single phase (fan & conveyor motor).

Did your electrician reconfigure the heating element wiring when converting the dryer to 3 phase (or was this dryer always used on a 3 phase system) ??

For people looking for a good, inexpensive, sturdy tool for troubleshooting electrical circuits... I'd recommend this one:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006Z3GZU/ref=twister_B06W57QS6F?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

He changed nothing, essentially we moved in and "plugged it in" somewhere else. It was always 3 phase. Properly run drops. However, there is conflicting info here, as I have 2 guys that say the 39 amps would be divided, roughly, per leg, but you have it at full current on each leg. BTW, the legend plate shows 49A in single phase. We're still trying to decide, as I was wrong on the buck booster quote I put up earlier, it's actually $2300.

Steve

Well.... If it helps you decide whom to believe, I'd suggest you factor in my 40+ years in the electrical trade (currently holding an A-Master license in the state of Minnesota) 
Happily retired from that occupation, in 2016 

In regards to the nameplate current ratings:
The higher amperage rating (49A) when connected to single phase power can be attributed to only two conductors carrying load.
When connected to a 3 phase source, there are three conductors carrying the load... hence the lower amperage draw .
If you think of it in "plumbing" terms you'd have three pipes (3 phase) vs 2 pipes (single phase).

It might be helpful to think about this issue in wattage terms:
When connected to single phase power, the math would be.... 240V X 49A = 11,760 watts
When connected to 208Volt 3 phase power, the math would be 208V X 39A X 1.73 = 14,030 watts
When connected to 240Volt 3 phase power, the math would be 240V X 39A X 1.73 = 16,193 watts
The 1.73 factor is a result of having the third power carrying conductor (vs 2 power conductors in a simple single phase source).
So.... as Winston pointed out in his observation the power (heat output) would be only slightly lower on the 208 Volt source (in this case about 15% -or- 2000 watts.

Here's another troubleshooting approach, for your consideration, what other 240 volt equipment has been negatively impacted by the move (to a lower voltage source).
Does your 240 volt air compressor run OK ?
If your flash is 240 volt, does it operate correctly ?
The one really puzzling fact (to me) is that your belt speed has been affected.... that makes me think there's problem such as:
-- A bad connection at the breaker
-- A bad connection at the cord/plug connection
-- A blown fuse in the dryer
Of course, any of those conditions would also effect the heat output to a large extent.

Sorry.... I can't be definitive in a diagnosis.... Good luck

Please don't think I was doubting you, or need credentials. My go to guy was the head of maintenance (not the janitor) of Avery Dennison for 30 years, and is pretty damn knowledgable too. Me, I don't know, so I have to ask. The in depth information, (thank you for taking the time) is very enlightening indeed, and I do follow it. So, as you infer, we're falling a couple of thousand watts short. We don't use the percentage input timer that came with it so many years ago, the elements are simply hardwired, and we use the belt speed to control how much heat the garments get. This has worked fine up until the move, sigh. I'm pretty sure, as Winston notes, that it was 230v in the old shop, but not completely sure. If it was higher, then going down to the 208v might just be too much of a drop. So what's cheaper, the $2300 for the buck boosters, or getting new elements? I've swapped out elements before, not a terribly difficult task... And really guys, thanks so much for the help.

Steve