Virus Inks - 4 color process on white shirts

[redwoodtees]

I'm planning to print the attached as 4CP on white 100% cotton shirts. I decided to try the separation service from Virus. But I ran into a minor complication. Since they are in the middle of a transition to the WOW inks, which will not be available for another month (according to SPR), I need to use the "old" hydra process inks. SPR only stocks the "HC" version of the hydra process inks, and they are telling me that I must run a white UB for these, even on white shirts. SPR says that I can use the "non-HC" variant without an underbase. But no-one seems to stock the non-HC variant

A couple questions:
Why do I need to run a white UB on white shirts with the HC inks? Is that recommendation given out of an abundance of caution, or will there be a significant difference in quality without the UB?

If you were me (exclusively waterbase, new to 4CP, mainly experienced with Virus DC and WB inks), how would you proceed? The path of least resistance is to use the Hydra Process HC inks with an UB, but I don't want to run the UB if I don't have to.

[RICK STEFANICK]

We tried everything with the hydro process inks but could never get the super soft hand expected with process and discharge . We sampled 10 designs all seped by virus. The seps were excellent the prints were super vibrant and clean. The hand killed the program using those inks. We also had major drying in problems that we have not delt with in a long time as we are using another mfg. base pigment system daily for our 110 standard discharge colors and my printers didn't like that. just my .02

[zanegun08]

Why don't you just set it up with the under base, print it with, and without, and if you like the results without turn off the two screens and run it.

I don't think that you would need the under base, but I know a base does help with dot gain in some instances, so maybe you could do just the one high mesh under base, and not use both screens.

Set it up the way they recommend, and then try it the way you want to do it.

[ZooCity]

The ub gives your dots something to land on.  Necessary for a quality print on some fabrics and will prevent fibrillation. 

Rick,  I've found that hsa rides low in film thickness to the fabric.  Coarse print surface yields a coarse print. Smooth print surfaces yield the best coating prints I've seen.   Plastisol actually feels better on some garments for this reason.

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[cbjamel]

gsg is now a dealer.

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[RICK STEFANICK]

Why don't you just set it up with the under base, print it with, and without, and if you like the results without turn off the two screens and run it.

I don't think that you would need the under base, but I know a base does help with dot gain in some instances, so maybe you could do just the one high mesh under base, and not use both screens.

Set it up the way they recommend, and then try it the way you want to do it.

Believe me we had one press on it for 2 WEEKS. The results are not there when your running 16 different cc reactive dyed garment colors all with the same print. The underbase is necessary.

[RICK STEFANICK]

The ub gives your dots something to land on.  Necessary for a quality print on some fabrics and will prevent fibrillation. 

Rick,  I've found that hsa rides low in film thickness to the fabric.  Coarse print surface yields a coarse print. Smooth print surfaces yield the best coating prints I've seen.   Plastisol actually feels better on some garments for this reason.

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Thanks , Yes that's correct when we were running the virus the base was on a 305 and the second a 200. we ended up trying just putting the base positive and highlite together hoping for a better result.

[zanegun08]

Why don't you just set it up with the under base, print it with, and without, and if you like the results without turn off the two screens and run it.

I don't think that you would need the under base, but I know a base does help with dot gain in some instances, so maybe you could do just the one high mesh under base, and not use both screens.

Set it up the way they recommend, and then try it the way you want to do it.

Believe me we had one press on it for 2 WEEKS. The results are not there when your running 16 different cc reactive dyed garment colors all with the same print. The underbase is necessary.

The Original Post was asking about printing on 100% Cotton White Tees.  I said to follow manufacture specs, and then try it how he wanted (no underbase) on white shirt.

[zanegun08]

Ok, so I had some limited time to test today, and the results were pretty good.  Unfortunately we had some screens breakdown which I was just addressing in another thread as our emulsion shouldn't be breaking down so quickly so something is happening there.

I didn't have a chance to test on white with and without under base with the Virus Process WOW HC, although I think that when printing on whites with the separation for darks you'll just get a more color rich image.

Print


Source Image


My findings - The Virus Separation service is fast, I got my file back less than 24 hours after I submitted it to Virus through their website. 

They supplied a link to download instructions, and separations.  The separations were on a PDF which I don't like as I would prefer a Photoshop file with channels so I can make a DCS.  But I loaded up the files and made a DCS, which interestingly each individual file in the multipage PDF was not the same size, so lining them up was sort of annoying.  Also they upscaled my 300DPI image into a 600DPI separation.

I output at 60 LPI with their instructed angles (Black is at 45 degree which had me concerned but didn't get moire).  Printed them on the Spyder II Bi-Directional on 140 and 305 mesh.  They are calling for S Thread, but we don't have S Thread so I wanted to go on 280's but didn't have those screens ready.

Tri-Loc'd in the image on a Gauntlet III 14 color, loaded the inks with 3% Retarder, and went to print.  What we found is we needed to add softer squeegees to the base, and harder squeegees to the black as we needed more base and less black.

The ink is dry to touch at the unload station which is pretty cool, however I don't even know why water base ink companies try to claim that it "doesn't dry up in the screen".  In my experience it's only false advertising, the ink drys in the screen, is rough on emulsion, you have to move fast and keep the test prints rolling while dialing in the process.  As a side note we do not have quartz flashes (IR) so we may be running with pallets that are overly hot, but I'm not sure the case.

Overall, I'm pretty impressed with the print, the photo doesn't really do it justice as it looks better to the eye.  If I were to setup the image again I would curve the base so it prints more ink as we printed one with 3 bases and it looked even better.  This was just a test print that we put together and by no means was it an easy one but the service is simple, the print feels great on the shirt, the inks work, albeit they are not easy to work with (keep them printing).

I'm hoping that we will have some more images to do in the near future that may be a little more forgiving.  I'm also interested if we used their CMYK separations with say Union's CMYK inks if we would get similar results.  Or adding a discharge base, white, CMYK with their separations.  I like to try to stick with the manufacturers suggested specifications, and then try stuff from there, but didn't have the time today to do so, and it's hard to play when the inks dry in so quickly.

So no, didn't do 4 color process on white shirts, but the service works, and we got good results as we stray away from 4 Color Process at all within our shop, however the image did take 7 colors, so I wonder if we got a 7/8 color separation done with simulated color process if we could get similar results, or if someone (Virus?) were to print the same separation if they would get better results as well.

[abchung]

Nice and thank you.

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[RICK STEFANICK]

how's the hand?

[redwoodtees]

Just to close the loop, I ended up printing this job with Permaset Aqua process inks (no underbase), using the separations provided by Virus. I had planned to try both inks, but started with the Permaset, was happy with the results, so just ran with it. Thanks for all the advice in this thread.. I have learned so much from this forum (including that I still have much to learn..)

[zanegun08]

Good feedback, I had a hunch that their separations would work well with any CMYK in wether water base or plastisol.

I wonder if they work better than just running the RGB file through illustrator and outputting at the same angles?

How does your image hold up to washing with no under base?

[Colin]

Zane.  Illustrator is set up for 20% dot gain.  Dot gain for us printers is a barest minimum of 30%, typically 35% or more....

Your images will go super saturated very quickly, not to mention color contamination....

[redwoodtees]

How does your image hold up to washing with no under base?

Wash test passed.. no issues. I always try to cure to the mfr's recommended time/temp. In this case, that has been rather difficult. Running white shirts with WB ink in an electric dryer is, I am learning, a PITA. My normal settings scorched the shirts. I ended up having to run the shirts through the dryer 4X at a reduced temp and increased belt speed.. Good times

Chris