when calling out a pms, how far do you go to match PMS col?

[Dottonedan]

I had heard some difference of opinions in how shops handle PMS matches. While on this subject, I am also surprised to find out that we have some shops that still do not consider or offer any pantone matches at all. Of those that do, what is your standard procedure?
 
 Do you custom mix inks to match a pantone color till it truley matches the pms color called out, or do you match in general or near, or whatever the ink formula calls out? I'm not looking for the "unique situation". I'm looking for your daily or average approach to a PMS match. Your every day practice.  How do you handle PMS matches?  exactly, very close, close, (I don't do pantone matches at all.
 See POLL above.

[Fresh Baked Printing]

If not 100% match then what's the point? I think ink matches from an ink supplier require a large quantity order.

[Frog]

I answered #2 Very Close but...
I shoot for #1 Exact, but as Harry Calahan told me, "a man's got to know his limitations." A man also has to both tell his clients the same thing, and whenevr possible, put the ultimate responsibility of approval on them.

I just ran a job that requested 295C, and though I followed the Union formula, to my eye it was way off! The client, her deisgner, and thew folks who bought the shirts all loved 'em. so in the end, I'd also say that sometimes " a man's got to know his clients". as well.

It's usually those damn artists who are as bad as the large corporations with their subtle differences, like when I noticed the number of almost identical spot colors on certain artist's jobs increased as number of heads on new presses increased! 

[tonypep]

Depends on the client. Most formulation is pretty accurate so why not? That said as Pierre can attest I keep something like 600 colors on hand and can hit anything I need as accurate as needed by eye in under a minute. It's not cheating if you know color theory.

[blue moon]

we offer all of the above at different cost.
-close is standard and it usually does not incur a charge if we have anything on the shelf that is close or it takes less than few min to get it close. this is what most customers want as they do not wish to pay for the matching and their customers are not that demanding.
-next one is very close, which in Dan's terms is a shade up or down. This is a $15 charge and the color printed is the color from the formula book. As we all know, those are not spot on, but are pretty close. They will print differently on the dark fabric with an underbase (generally much, much lighter) then they will on a white shirt without the underbase. This is our normal Pantone match.
-super demanding customers are charged $25 and the ink is mixed until the perceptual value matches the specified pantone color. That means we adjust the ink several times unit the perceptual difference is negligible. If going on a navy shirt the color will not be the same as if going on the red. Our eye perceives the colors differently based on the surrounding colors and we compensate for this. Most customers do not wish to pay for this, but the ones that want it are glad that we offer it!

pierre

[Fresh Baked Printing]

The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card. Good point that a color won't look the same on a white shirt vs a red shirt, ub, etc.
I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.
The biggest sticklers for exact matching are for brand colors, like Target red or Best Buy blue.
I bet if the PMS match charge was high enough the customer would often be happy with a stock color.

[Dottonedan]

The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card. Good point that a color won't look the same on a white shirt vs a red shirt, ub, etc.
I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.
The biggest sticklers for exact matching are for brand colors, like Target red or Best Buy blue.
I bet if the PMS match charge was high enough the customer would often be happy with a stock color.

You said it.

The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card

To me, (and I will throw in the variable that I am unique), but for me, I am under the impressions that if I call out using pms 3285 green on an Athletic (solid spot color job), then I expect the color to be in or as best can be matched, to the 3285. That's regardless of it's on a black tee, red tee or purple tee. 3295 is 3295.  Piss on the idea that the shirt color makes a difference. The ink is not to view darker like pms 3305 because you don't have a heavy enough underbase or it's not to view as a bright Pantone green because thats close enough.

I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.

  Being "Different" is subject to opinion but needs to also be in the area.

A 3295 with a 156 undersabe is going to look pretty close (if not 100%) to pms 3295.   If you print that 3295 green on a 300 mesh with a 300 mesh underbase and the underbase has 60% halftone under the 3295 green...and you are using thin translucent inks, then you are not going to match pms 3295. To just say, "Well, I used pms 3295" is not accurate or appropriate. The shop has not done the job of matching pms 3295.  This is not pertaining to sim process. This is standard spot color printing. If a customer calls out a PMS color, the pms 3295 should be 3295 no matter the shirt color. This is all with the understanding that inks can shift, colors shift, to be a shade up or down (even on pms matches are withn reason. Nobody should scream over not having it match 100% but at best, is can be 98-99%.  They are being unrealistic if they have 12 colors in a job and demand to have an exact match of all 12.

[blue moon]

The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card. Good point that a color won't look the same on a white shirt vs a red shirt, ub, etc.
I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.
The biggest sticklers for exact matching are for brand colors, like Target red or Best Buy blue.
I bet if the PMS match charge was high enough the customer would often be happy with a stock color.

You said it.

The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card

To me, (and I will throw in the variable that I am unique), but for me, I am under the impressions that if I call out using pms 3285 green on an Athletic (solid spot color job), then I expect the color to be in or as best can be matched, to the 3285. That's regardless of it's on a black tee, red tee or purple tee. 3295 is 3295.  Piss on the idea that the shirt color makes a difference. The ink is not to view darker like pms 3305 because you don't have a heavy enough underbase or it's not to view as a bright Pantone green because thats close enough.

I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.

  Being "Different" is subject to opinion but needs to also be in the area.

A 3295 with a 156 undersabe is going to look pretty close (if not 100%) to pms 3295.   If you print that 3295 green on a 300 mesh with a 300 mesh underbase and the underbase has 60% halftone under the 3295 green...and you are using thin translucent inks, then you are not going to match pms 3295. To just say, "Well, I used pms 3295" is not accurate or appropriate. The shop has not done the job of matching pms 3295.  This is not pertaining to sim process. This is standard spot color printing. If a customer calls out a PMS color, the pms 3295 should be 3295 no matter the shirt color. This is all with the understanding that inks can shift, colors shift, to be a shade up or down (even on pms matches are withn reason. Nobody should scream over not having it match 100% but at best, is can be 98-99%.  They are being unrealistic if they have 12 colors in a job and demand to have an exact match of all 12.

well, there are some other possibilities too. For example, the logo color for my customer is 123. The use it for all they do. Then they print 123 with very fine lines on a black poster and while it was printed with 123, the overall perception of the color shifts as the black is overpowering. Now I go ahead and print the shirt with a 123 pms match ink, the area is bigger and the perceived color is not the same. Now their color is varying from one product to another. Posters are one shade, mugs are another and the shirts are something else. That is why the color is matched to the perceived value rather than the actual pantone number . . .

pierre

[Dottonedan]

Depends on the client. Most formulation is pretty accurate so why not? That said as Pierre can attest I keep something like 600 colors on hand and can hit anything I need as accurate as needed by eye in under a minute. It's not cheating if you know color theory.

What procedure do you use (on average or as a standard) to provide a color to a customer. When a customer provides you with a list of PMS colors to use in the art, and you then go to prepare the inks, where do you end up?  What is your next step? To what degree of color matching do you use? Do you make these calls on your own or do you make a call to the customer to see just how true they want these pantone colors to be?  Do you ask, "Do you really want your pantone 3295 to be 3295 or is close good enough?

With that said, then,  Do you have varying pantone matching charges?

[Dottonedan]

well, there are some other possibilities too. For example, the logo color for my customer is 123. The use it for all they do. Then they print 123 with very fine lines on a black poster and while it was printed with 123, the overall perception of the color shifts as the black is overpowering. Now I go ahead and print the shirt with a 123 pms match ink, the area is bigger and the perceived color is not the same. Now their color is varying from one product to another. Posters are one shade, mugs are another and the shirts are something else. That is why the color is matched to the perceived value rather than the actual pantone number . . .

pierre

No. You can try to align the planets and arch your back and print upside down to get a better view of the color...in the end, when a printer has 6 heads and 5 are taken up and you need pms 123 in 80% of the art but this 123 (thin line) is going to be over powered by this black surrounding shirt, just print it and deliver. You can't add a 7th color to a 6 color press so let it fly. The customer will have to understand that we only have so many things we can do on a tee shirt.

[inkman996]

We sell shirts with Art or logos printed on them so yes how the shirt color effects the colors of the printed art does matter to us. We sell the final piece to the customer unlike most artists they only sell or provide the art and really do not care what the sum of everything is.

For us we still use stock inks, that will change soon enough. If a PMS is called for then we do the same as Pierre and offer a close by eye mix in house for a charge or offer a custom mixed PMS match from union for a charge. They always pick one of the two.

And BTW a PMS color such as a deep red on a complete black back ground is not good in my eye and will always go for a slightly brighter red, this applies for any deeper colors on black.

[alan802]

We do our best to match exactly, but I've been doing this long enough to know that sometimes a color is impossible for us to match, due to whatever variable you want to throw in there.  We can match any color to the pantone book when the ink is still in the bucket, some colors are harder than others, but we can get dead on.  Then based on many different variables, that color may not print how it looks in the bucket, then it needs to be altered which ever way and then you have to know when to say when on a color.  Like Frog said, there are limitations, and if someone is bold enough to say they match exactly every single time, then I'd have my doubts, and I'd then consider subjectivity into the equation and say by my standards, it's impossible to do every single time, but  maybe not by another standard, or if someone who is somewhat color blind.

[Sbrem]

We go with #2, because it's not paper, which the system is designed for. Like the discussion about U or C, it's the same damn ink out of the can in the offset shop, just on different paper. But, we're not printing with an offset press on to paper, so it won't be exact. We can't allow a customer to hold us to a spec that can't actually be met. Yes, you can come ridiculously close, but not close enough to keep some jerk from arguing with you and looking for a discount. So right up front, we lower their expectations. After all, when they get distributed, nobody cares or notices. We show samples of course, so they have to sign off on them, and if they aren't happy, they are more than welcome to come out to see it with their own eyes, and as Pierre mentions, at a cost.

Steve

[jsheridan]

I tell customers right off the bat that plastisol and waterbase inks are nothing but a simulation of the actual pantone color and it may or may not look exactly like the chip when it comes out the dryer. If you want it to look exactly as the chip, then it's $25 per color. If you're OK with my better judgement and getting it as close as possible, then it's only $10 per color.

[Dottonedan]

author=Inkman996 link=topic=1857.msg19495#msg19495 date=1319740364]
We sell shirts with Art or logos printed on them so yes how the shirt color effects the colors of the printed art does matter to us.

  Sure it does.  Sometimes you can't change what is.  If I ask for titty pink, any pink will do. That is very vague.  If I ask for pms 196,  it needs to be 196 (or very close).  This is no matter if It's a 12"x16" flat solid square on a royal blue shirt or if it's a .5" x .5" square on a royal shirt. 196 is 196.

We sell the final piece to the customer unlike most artists they only sell or provide the art and really do not care what the sum of everything is.

  ??  Thats a broad blanket statement that sounds more like it's covering outside of the tee shirt artist I'd think.  We consider this stuff MORE than the average printers or shop owners when we create art for tees. It's what we do.

And BTW a PMS color such as a deep red on a complete black back ground is not good in my eye and will always go for a slightly brighter red, this applies for any deeper colors on black.

1st, whats good to your eye is not requested. It's who's wants it and is paying for it. So, if the custy says, put pms 4975 dark brown in a 1" square on a black tee, then it should look like that PMS color. However you achieve that is up to you. If you can achieve that by using a brighter red, than great. If the brighter red look (too bright) and not like pms 4975, then you may be obligated to re-do them if you didn't get approval before hand. As long as it looks like that color needed, you've done your job.