Ghosting on triblends and cotton/poly??

[Atownsend]

I printed a run of C3650's (50/37.5/12.5% asphalt slubs) and C3055's (heather green ringer 52/48). Ink was "Primetime White" from texsource. Its a low bleed white, but not intended for 100% poly. This was 5 mos ago.... today the customer contacts me and sends me the attached pics. She says that she has sold a good amount of them, and didn't notice the ghosting on any of the ones that she sold. Most of them have been sitting in the box  for 5 mos since we boxed them. I've seen this before on knock off blue 100% cotton tees, but never cotton / poly blends. I am guessing that I need to drop this ink from texsource, and search for an alternative. The ink itself is great and I haven't had any issues prior to this. My understanding was that it is just rebranded Rutland ink, but who knows. I'm not sure if it is the ink, or the dyes in the garments. We rarely stack anything hot off the dryer, so this one is really bugging me. Should I really be running a cotton white on these temperamental blends, or does the low bleed ink just have a bad formulation? Maybe bella / canvas is just slipping with their dyes? ayi yai yai... the ghosting is on enough of them, but fortunately it isn't a huge number.

[Inkworks]

*could be a lot of things but......*

The only time this happened to me was using an athletic white with a bleaching agent (hydrogen peroxide I believe) in it to try to block dye migration, probably the only bucket of plastisol I've thrown out over 1/2 full.

Now we just use good Wilflex Poly white ink and why we won't ever....EVER.... try to save money on poly whites again. It was ~ 800 shirts for us, the customer took them at shirt cost to use as give-away promotional shirts, and we re-printed more shirts to replace the event order. We were damned lucky to get that too and I was happy to only be out ink and labor on the original shirts.

[Frog]

Here are some more threads in which the ghosting phonomenon has been discussed, though the classic problem is usually a combination of (some) low bleed inks and cotton.

http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2517.msg26951.html#msg26951

http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,18070.msg172435.html#msg172435

http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,13764.0.html

[Atownsend]

*could be a lot of things but......*

The only time this happened to me was using an athletic white with a bleaching agent (hydrogen peroxide I believe) in it to try to block dye migration, probably the only bucket of plastisol I've thrown out over 1/2 full.

Now we just use good Wilflex Poly white ink and why we won't ever....EVER.... try to save money on poly whites again. It was ~ 800 shirts for us, the customer took them at shirt cost to use as give-away promotional shirts, and we re-printed more shirts to replace the event order. We were damned lucky to get that too and I was happy to only be out ink and labor on the original shirts.

I am glad to find this on a relatively small batch... 800 pcs would be a total nightmare. If manufacturers are going to put out inks with additives that are known to cause ghosting, you would think they'd give a warning. Seems whack that a poly ink would cause ghosting on the polyester blends that they are intended for, but maybe i'm putting too much blame on the ink. It looks like I am back in the market for a new poly white.

How common are these bleaching agents in LB inks? Am I correct to assume that If I do not see "non peroxide" or "no bleaching agents" in the specs / features list of a low bleed ink, that the ink most likely contains bleaching agents likely to cause ghosting issues?

[Steve Harpold]

Quick question:

Can anybody claim a ghosting issue whe there was not a high humidity present?

[Colin]

Yes.

But it was with 100% Poly.  Rutland Super White using 3 flashes on a 14 color press.  Ghosted through the shirt and it showed up on the back of the garment upon exiting the dryer.  We had to put cardboard into the shirt.

Sprint 2000 HO 12 foot chamber 330 Degrees 1 minute retention time.  Located in Beaverton Oregon ( i.e. very little real humidity)

[Steve Harpold]

That was going to be my next question, if you went to 300 F on the dryer did the ghosting remain or disappear?

[Prince Art]

Not help, really, just input. (Just what you wanted, right?)

But part of the problem may indeed be the brand. This summer, we've been experiencing problems with bleed & dye migrations like never before - specifically and exclusively on some of Bella+Canvas' blends. We haven't had ghosting (though none of the goods are 5 months out yet, either!). But we've had to do some hardcore underbase-flash-underbase prints using bleed resistant, dye-blocking inks, just to get our white to stay white.

We've seen this especially with marble blend, & high-% viscose shirts; but it wouldn't surprise me to see it in others, too. With some inks, migration was seen immediately; with others, it showed up after sitting over the weekend.

I'm sure ink chemistry (and maybe cure process) are bigger factors re ghosting. But I feel like Canvas has thrown a curveball with some of their dyes/materials. Not sure how that translates to your problem - but I'd warn anyone to take extra precautions with BC blends.

[Colin]

That was going to be my next question, if you went to 300 F on the dryer did the ghosting remain or disappear?

The ink is 320 Cure.

Prince Art:

What are your ink/mesh/flash/dryer specs?

[Prince Art]

Prince Art:

What are your ink/mesh/flash/dryer specs?

Keep in mind we're a small manual shop-

Dryer: About 1 minute in chamber, peaking at about 350-360 at the end. <(Not at all ideal, especially for dye migration issues. But we have a short dryer, and that's what it seems to take to ensure a full cure.)

Flash: 7-14 seconds, but we raise the height of the flash to reduce temp. (No auto flash, no temp control, so that's as good as it gets.)

Mesh: 110-200. 110+110= better results for bleed, but... so thick on thin fabric!

Ink: The best white we've used is a blend we tried out of desperation. 4:1 One Stroke Hybrid White:Rutland Chino Base. We've also used One Stroke's ELT Digital Black Underbase on maroon marble, followed by a heavy coat of this white^. (This worked, and on a giant spot of white; but it was bulletproof, and I hate that.) Once we have an undercoat that works, colors would generally be Rutland M3 mixes.

Here's the sequence that finally worked for a BC 8800 midnight tank (65 poly/ 35 viscose):
White Base (Hybrid/chino blend), 200 mesh; flood/stroke x3
Flash 12 sec (raised height)
White Base; flood/stroke x1
Flash 12 sec
red (M3 mix), 155; flood/stroke x1
White overlay (same blend), 110 mesh.

End result was a good print that wasn't super-thick. Done again, I'd put the white base on a lower mesh, so that we wouldn't have to stroke the first underbase so much. BUT- I would absolutely expect to print-flash-print the underbase; every time I've tried to get away without that on the marbles and on poly/viscose fabrics, we've sacrificed opacity & had some amount of dye migration.

I should add that on the same run described above, we also printed 3 different colors of BC triblend. "Solid navy" and "charcoal black" behaved like they ought, and only needed a single underbase print. But "solid black" didn't, and needed a flash + another coat down. Why didn't triblend solid black behave like 2 similar colors?  I couldn't tell you.

This is in no way meant as a "how to". It's more of a "how we did it this time." I want to figure out a better way to handle this. I'm still trying learn which inks to use for challenging jobs. Hopefully someone with more insight can chime in!

(And I still don't know how shirts could ghost months after printing. I've always though that happened when hot from the dryer. Unless maybe they were stored WAY above room temperature!)

[mimosatexas]

Lot to tackle there, but I think you're using the wrong inks honestly and the rest of the printing is sort of "wrong" as a result.  I'm also a manual shop and also print lots of triblends and poly etc.  That hybrid white is pretty much a cotton white if I recall correctly, so that is the first issue.  Basing it down is making things worse, not better as well.  Look into finding a true low bleed or poly white that cures around 300 and is creamy with good matdown for those triblends.  There are lots out there, and I can't suggest a specific one that will work for you, but you should be able to test a bunch and find the one you like the most.  Look into thin thread mesh asap as well. You shouldnt be having to triple stroke a base ever.

[Colin]

Like Mimosa said, change you white   and go thin thread mesh if possible.

Also, the addition of chino base will ruin bleed characteristics.  I understand wanting the ink to be creamier, but the addition of anything that is not at the same level of bleed resistance will ruin your prints.

Talk to One Stroke about their Poly inks.  They have a wide number available.  We use the .357 here and the bleed resistance is better than Barrier Grey Bases that are on the market...

[Prince Art]

Thanks for the advice. Normally, for triblend we don't have a problem, and don't print with this combination. I mentioned here to show we were getting varying results on what ought to be essentially the same shirt.

I concur that our ink use was "wrong." It occurred in the middle of a job where the poly ink we had on hand wasn't working. OS Hybrid is a very opaque cotton & poly/cotton ink, so we tried it. But it was just too thick for thin blend shirts, and semi-opaque Chino base seemed safer than thinning with reducer. (Could be wrong.) It resulted in an opaque print that didn't bleed, so we used it.

And this is not how I'd suggest someone else print the job! I just offered the info since Colin asked. However, this is not my thread, so please don't let me hijack it! I'll continue to search the forum for info on the best inks & procedures for challenging fabrics.

[mimosatexas]

No worries, just sharing advice.

[Prince Art]

No worries, just sharing advice.

Thanks - and I'd otherwise ask a few questions... but since I didn't start the conversation, I don't want to be THAT guy on my first day on the board!