Lawson Focus CTS

[Shanarchy]

I can't reiterate how old the printer heads are in that dts. We're talking HP 650C era printing technology. 1.5oz of ink in each cartridge you'll go through an unfathomable amount of them without a bulk solution.

I noticed that too. The cartridges seemed very small.

[GraphicDisorder]

I can't reiterate how old the printer heads are in that dts. We're talking HP 650C era printing technology. 1.5oz of ink in each cartridge you'll go through an unfathomable amount of them without a bulk solution.

I noticed that too. The cartridges seemed very small.

....and the trade offs show up already LOL.

[Maxie]

I think all DTS machines should cost 15k or less.
The current prices are crazy, these are printers not rockets.
I just bought a 12/14 MHM for,about the same prices the better DTS machines.
No logic and no justification for that.
You can get a 17" wide EPSON printer for about USD1000 with a rebate.
You cannot compare these to DTG where they tried to print white through heads that were never made for the thicker,white pigments and they needed constant cleaning and still blocked up.

[mk162]

even older CMYK only DTG machines were $20k.  It's all about market size.  Epson might sell 50,000 wide format printers but maybe 500 CTS machines.  Only screen printers would buy them.

[Shanarchy]

A trade off of a higher price in ink and a slower speed could be tolerable trade off for a smaller volume shop.

I would expect less printing issues with a CTS than a DTG. We (printers) have been running our own black dye ink cartridges/bulk systems for years with little issues. This is of course just my uninformed opinion and I'm sure there could still be a bunch of issues.

Out of curiosity where does the pricing start on the M&R i-image ST and STE models?

[Admiral]

A trade off of a higher price in ink and a slower speed could be tolerable trade off for a smaller volume shop.

I would expect less printing issues with a CTS than a DTG. We (printers) have been running our own black dye ink cartridges/bulk systems for years with little issues. This is of course just my uninformed opinion and I'm sure there could still be a bunch of issues.

Out of curiosity where does the pricing start on the M&R i-image ST and STE models?

Lower 50K's for I-Image ST 2636 (possibly high 40Ks, we have a 2 head).  STE model 60K+.

[GraphicDisorder]

A trade off of a higher price in ink and a slower speed could be tolerable trade off for a smaller volume shop.

I would expect less printing issues with a CTS than a DTG. We (printers) have been running our own black dye ink cartridges/bulk systems for years with little issues. This is of course just my uninformed opinion and I'm sure there could still be a bunch of issues.

Out of curiosity where does the pricing start on the M&R i-image ST and STE models?

I agree in context of all things being equal meaning the 15k machine runs as well as the 50k machine other than ink costs/speed there would be no differences. Regardless of speed of one CTS to the next once a shop goes to CTS it becomes a pretty big deal that it works every day. So if there is an issue Lawson will need good support in place. Its logical to assume that cheaper parts could mean more down time. I am guessing though with a machine punching in at 15k, I highly doubt much will be budgeted for support......and that is important.

[LoneWolf2]

I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.

I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.

[Frog]

I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.

I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.

Printers on forums often talk about not leaving money on the table. Many equipment and supply manufacturers may have a similar philosophy.

[GraphicDisorder]

I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.

I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.

Well if the Lawson hits the market and its a turd will you still have that opinion that others are over priced? It's interesting that all the big players in the CTS game has machines that cost "absurd" money or more. The few that are way lower priced have not seen the same level of success. Do you think that is because of price or because the machine lacks something or doesn't work as it should in some way?

[Frog]

I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.

I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.

Well if the Lawson hits the market and its a turd will you still have that opinion that others are over priced? It's interesting that all the big players in the CTS game has machines that cost "absurd" money or more. The few that are way lower priced have not seen the same level of success. Do you think that is because of price or because the machine lacks something or doesn't work as it should in some way?

I think that the hope may be that it is merely slower and less fancy with fewer bells and whistles. There was a time when a Nissan(Datsun back then), or Toyota, or Honda cost less than their American counterparts but were already actually better engineered and better built.

[abchung]

My concern is its accuracy.

DTG can be less accurate than CTS because it does everything on one pass (CMYK). While a CTS needs to keep the same accuracy on multiple frames.

[GraphicDisorder]

I'm curious as to what advantage that makes the additional $35k price difference justifiable, if you were picking all over again.

I do find it absurd that CTS/DTS units are priced this high, but I suppose when there's not many alternatives you can price them where you want.

Well if the Lawson hits the market and its a turd will you still have that opinion that others are over priced? It's interesting that all the big players in the CTS game has machines that cost "absurd" money or more. The few that are way lower priced have not seen the same level of success. Do you think that is because of price or because the machine lacks something or doesn't work as it should in some way?

I think that the hope may be that it is merely slower and less fancy with fewer bells and whistles. There was a time when a Nissan(Datsun back then), or Toyota, or Honda cost less than their American counterparts but were already actually better engineered and better built.

Right and I get what they are "hoping" for. Trying to just balance the discussion and make sure they are considering support and reliability of the machine. Ive pointed out if Lawson drops a machine that works like others that is maybe slower even with a price point at 15k they wont be able to build them fast enough. I just wouldn't put my money on that knowing what we know about Lawson.

Seems as if "price" is the driving factor for some here. I submit that it seems like the big players all play in the higher price point. The ones that have came in much less are having issue with machines or not selling well or whatever. So I think that means either the machines suck or the support sucks or maybe both.

Your car analogy would make sense if Lawson was building its own print heads and found a way to save money and make a more reliable printer which is why Nissan/Toyota/Honda all made a name for themselves, Honda isn't putting a Chevy motor in their car and trying to compete with Ford. Lawson (like most) are not building their print heads. It was already pointed out they are using a HP head that is pretty old tech now.

[Shanarchy]

Seems as if "price" is the driving factor for some here.

The established models come with a high price tag. I am not saying they are not worth the money, but you need to be doing a certain amount of screens per week to be able to truly justify it. Let's just say that number is 50/week (just throwing a number out there).

Say you are a shop that does 15-25 screens/week. These CTS machines are just something you drool over but can not realistically consider.

Enter a machine at 25% of that price. That means you would only need to be doing 25% of the volume to be able to consider one.

Of course these machines need to WORK.

I look at it this way, look at the price tag of a Challenger 3. Who wouldn't want one? But there are also a lot of Diamondback's being sold. So if they work as they should. And are supported as they should. (Both big if's) Then the difference becomes speed, ink costs, lower LPI, etc. then this would open CTS on an entry level to smaller shops.

On the flip side, we have seen a lot of products hit the market that are attractive because of their price point and are absolute garbage.

[Dottonedan]

Lawson said they had a few in bigger shops doing Beta testing and they were now ready for the market.

What are the I-image's doing for max LPI?.

I'm not seeing the Resolute one on line, but I'm looking at the Exile Freestyler. Both use a HP head, but I'm not sure if they are the same HP heads. The Frestlyer also says you can swap the head/cartridges out to use as a DTG.

For I-Image max lpi.
As high as 85lpi in full gradation down to 3% for and 96% shadow using a 1/1 sharp on a 350 mesh. That's not typical but it's pushing it's limits. If you adjust art and curves you can do as high lpi like 90 but you need to be able to understand why you are doing this at that time.