Hate to start a Pissing Contest But.......

[jvanick]

That print has a 5-6 second flash... how long is everyone flashing with with your standard quartz flash?  4 seconds?

we only flash at 5-6 seconds until the press is warmed up... after the platens get warm (nearly impossible with a flashback btw), we're down around 3.5 seconds... after the platens get hot, or working on poly, we're around a 2-2.5 second flash time.

now that I brought that up, that is one of the biggest limitations of using a flashback in my mind (the fact that you can't get the platens very warm)...  textac works better warm, plastisol sheers better warm, etc.

[aauusa]

Graphicdisorder...  I do not think anyone said the flashback did not slow production down compare to the dedicated flash station. 

Back to what the OP was wanting is what would we recommend the Cutless or diamondback (did not give model so comparison is done with s 10/8).  For me  there is pro and cons for either.

both are entry level  both come in 10/8.  with the cutless  you have the option of printing full 8 color with a flashback or going full 7 color with dedicated flash station.     with the diamond back s  you have a choice of going full 8 colors with no flash, or 7 color with dedicated flash station.  the diamondback s is 12" dia.  the cutless is 14"   with the diamond all electric, with the cutless air head and electric index so the cutless needs a compressor.  the diamondback s max print size is 16x18  the cutless 20x20.

so the speed thing which you seem to be driving really is a non starter between the 2 press because they both can be set up as 7 color with dedicated flash station. and both index electric.  now does an electric head print faster than an air head?  is an electric head have easier adjustments over air heads? 

so for me both of those presses are very similar with minor differences.  cutlass larger footprint but can do 8 colors with flash if needed, can add flashes and not lose colors if needed.  the diamondback s does not need compressor (money for compressor and electrical need for compressor  not needed )  if flashes are added then lose colors.

for me the biggest factor which stick out to me is the 8 color verse 7 color option.  now yes the diamondback s can come configured as a 10/9  which then give a full 8 color and a dedicated flash station but now you have only 1 spot for load and unload.  another trade off. 

so it really does come down to what the OP a) can afford,  b) what is more important 8 colors or 7 colors, c) how many employees will be running the machine most days.  if just 1(like my shop)  then for me the speed is not going to be as needed as much as the colors because 1 person will never be able to run either machine at the fastest speed (takes 2 people to be the fastest load and unload)

this is just my .02,  world peace to all   

and as always maybe i am wrong and i usually am

[aauusa]

now that I brought that up, that is one of the biggest limitations of using a flashback in my mind (the fact that you can't get the platens very warm)...  textac works better warm, plastisol sheers better warm, etc.
[/quote]

now that is not true at all.  we have flashback and yes the pallet heats up.  in fact on longer runs we do speed flash up faster and faster the more we print.  in fact on cold morning i turn the press on and let is cycle with the flashback on to get the pallets warmed up.  so saying that they cannot get them very warm is just not true at all in my experience.

[GraphicDisorder]

Graphicdisorder...  I do not think anyone said the flashback did not slow production down compare to the dedicated flash station. 

I used "band-aid" in the context that is slowed down production. You said:

i agee flashbacks are awesome,  wish I had a second as well. will have one in near future.  and to me a flashback is not a band-aid at all.

Which to me would suggest you felt it did not slow down production. It may not slow YOU down but it would slow down MANY is all I am saying. We need people to understand that flashbacks and using revolver have trade offs.  My original point was that simple and people got all defensive.

[jvanick]

now that I brought that up, that is one of the biggest limitations of using a flashback in my mind (the fact that you can't get the platens very warm)...  textac works better warm, plastisol sheers better warm, etc.

now that is not true at all.  we have flashback and yes the pallet heats up.  in fact on longer runs we do speed flash up faster and faster the more we print.  in fact on cold morning i turn the press on and let is cycle with the flashback on to get the pallets warmed up.  so saying that they cannot get them very warm is just not true at all in my experience.

at the speeds we had to run our flashback in order to not gel the ink in the screen above the platens never got very warm due to the fans cooling it down.

[Gilligan]

Diamond back is Air heads.

Even if it wasn't it would still need air for table up as well as chop cylinders.

M&R doesn't have an all electric press that I'm aware of.

[aauusa]

well a band-aide is a fix for something which is broken or not working correctly.  for me that characterization is not accurate.  and not defensive just have different opinion than yourself.   

[Gilligan]

now that I brought that up, that is one of the biggest limitations of using a flashback in my mind (the fact that you can't get the platens very warm)...  textac works better warm, plastisol sheers better warm, etc.

now that is not true at all.  we have flashback and yes the pallet heats up.  in fact on longer runs we do speed flash up faster and faster the more we print.  in fact on cold morning i turn the press on and let is cycle with the flashback on to get the pallets warmed up.  so saying that they cannot get them very warm is just not true at all in my experience.

We have a hard time warming up the pallets... we just don't do it.  On long runs though, it will warm up and we have to speed up the flash... not like standard flashes though.

[aauusa]

Diamond back is Air heads.

Even if it wasn't it would still need air for table up as well as chop cylinders.

M&R doesn't have an all electric press that I'm aware of.

my bad i was wring so the comparisons are even closer than what i had thought

[GraphicDisorder]

well a band-aide is a fix for something which is broken or not working correctly.  for me that characterization is not accurate.  and not defensive just have different opinion than yourself.

Use whatever verbiage you like. Flash backs would require a sacrifice for many shops. Which is speed. They are great if your not running fast or never need to run fast. If you want to be able to (which is one of the greatest reasons to automate to start with), one must consider other options. Why people are so defensive about it is beyond me.

[spotcolorsupply]

Diamond back is Air heads.

Even if it wasn't it would still need air for table up as well as chop cylinders.

M&R doesn't have an all electric press that I'm aware of.

This is correct ^^^

As far as I know the air requirements are about the same between the two machines.

The cutlass msrp is 27 or 28k (can't remember which)

If you factor in the compressor it is only about 3-4k to upgrade to the sabre...

[Gilligan]

the diamondback s max print size is 16x18  the cutless 20x20.

Brandt, isn't this enough of a reason for you to push the Workhorse over the Diamondback?

[GraphicDisorder]

the diamondback s max print size is 16x18  the cutless 20x20.

Brandt, isn't this enough of a reason for you to push the Workhorse over the Diamondback?

I wouldn't buy either one as I have pointed out already. I would buy a all servo press. I have not suggested one brand over another.

When I was shopping my autos Workhorse visited us and we came to a install locally with them and even though the press had problems on install they corrected it the next day and the customer is still using that press last I knew.

[aauusa]

Well 86 me. You win

Off to the beach to be defensive

[spotcolorsupply]

sabre choppers

Pretty sure I didn't embed the video correctly, but seems to fit in this thread...

Edit... The cutlass will be the same set up...