Hate to start a Pissing Contest But.......

[GraphicDisorder]

i agee flashbacks are awesome,  wish I had a second as well. will have one in near future.  and to me a flashback is not a band-aid at all.

Whats the max dz per hour you print at while flashing a full size image 15x17 inches?  I know when I watched flashbacks in action it was like watching paint dry. Much like revolver.

Some old timers would say even flashes are a band aid.

Also true 

[screenprintguy]

Some old timers would say even flashes are a band aid.

hahahahahahaahahah


My vote, if you can, go for a unit with servo index, and a/c heads. Also consider support. Consider that big time. Not to mention, resale value ect. Lots to consider for the first time, but if I had the first time to go over again. I'd go a/c heads, sevo index, and as many print heads as possible. By the way, did I mention, our new GT3 14 color is sick, insane, and friggin awesome!!  So glad we stayed with M&R, the attention they have given us has been awesome!

[aauusa]

i agee flashbacks are awesome,  wish I had a second as well. will have one in near future.  and to me a flashback is not a band-aid at all.

Whats the max dz per hour you print at while flashing a full size image 15x17 inches?  I know when I watched flashbacks in action it was like watching paint dry. Much like revolver.

Some old timers would say even flashes are a band aid.

when i print and catch alone doing a large flash average print size 12x12  it is just at 150 pieces per hour(12 dozen)  when not flashing 300 pieces (25 dozen)  with the flash going full stroke I am able to load a shirts and catch each piece coming out of the end of the dryer(nothing falls in the box)(small walk to back of dryer to the load station  8 steps) the above numbers are for print/flash/print/flash.   we are a small auto shop 1 printer and 1 cleaner.  we do more smaller jobs than 300 pieces or more jobs.  so the flashback does not slow us down.  but if you are a larger shop or do more larger orders then yes the flashback will create some issues on time.   so just going big on the press is not always the right fit for each business.  all depends on the number of employees which you are going to use to run the machine and the size jobs your shop normally prints.   

side not our dryer is rated for 36 dozen per hour.

for me I like the air rather than electric.  reason is for me and my brain it is easier to fix/find local parts for the air components.  where some of the stuff which can go wrong on the electric well i would need to find a local supplier which is not available (small market )

Also true 

[GraphicDisorder]

when i print and catch alone doing a large flash average print size 12x12  it is just at 150 pieces per hour(12 dozen)  when not flashing 300 pieces (25 dozen)  with the flash going full stroke I am able to load a shirts and catch each piece coming out of the end of the dryer(nothing falls in the box)(small walk to back of dryer to the load station  8 steps) the above numbers are for print/flash/print/flash.   we are a small auto shop 1 printer and 1 cleaner.  we do more smaller jobs than 300 pieces or more jobs.  so the flashback does not slow us down.  but if you are a larger shop or do more larger orders then yes the flashback will create some issues on time.   so just going big on the press is not always the right fit for each business.  all depends on the number of employees which you are going to use to run the machine and the size jobs your shop normally prints.   

side not our dryer is rated for 36 dozen per hour.

for me I like the air rather than electric.  reason is for me and my brain it is easier to fix/find local parts for the air components.  where some of the stuff which can go wrong on the electric well i would need to find a local supplier which is not available (small market )

Also true 

Sounds like it is right for your shop now... id agree with you. What about in 5 years?  What if you need to start pumping out work, those flash backs and that dryer are going to be holding you back sounds like. I think the idea of a auto for most is to increase capacity as well as making it a bit less hard than printing manually.  If you can unload/load/walk to back of the dryer and be ready for the next pallet in the time it takes the flash back that is SUPER slow.  That seems like a band-aid in that context.  A stand alone flash on a print flash print and you'd be lucky to be able to load/unload in the time it took to flash.  Just saying.

[aauusa]

when i print and catch alone doing a large flash average print size 12x12  it is just at 150 pieces per hour(12 dozen)  when not flashing 300 pieces (25 dozen)  with the flash going full stroke I am able to load a shirts and catch each piece coming out of the end of the dryer(nothing falls in the box)(small walk to back of dryer to the load station  8 steps) the above numbers are for print/flash/print/flash.   we are a small auto shop 1 printer and 1 cleaner.  we do more smaller jobs than 300 pieces or more jobs.  so the flashback does not slow us down.  but if you are a larger shop or do more larger orders then yes the flashback will create some issues on time.   so just going big on the press is not always the right fit for each business.  all depends on the number of employees which you are going to use to run the machine and the size jobs your shop normally prints.   

side not our dryer is rated for 36 dozen per hour.

for me I like the air rather than electric.  reason is for me and my brain it is easier to fix/find local parts for the air components.  where some of the stuff which can go wrong on the electric well i would need to find a local supplier which is not available (small market )

Also true 

Sounds like it is right for your shop now... id agree with you. What about in 5 years?  What if you need to start pumping out work, those flash backs and that dryer are going to be holding you back sounds like. I think the idea of a auto for most is to increase capacity as well as making it a bit less hard than printing manually.  If you can unload/load/walk to back of the dryer and be ready for the next pallet in the time it takes the flash back that is SUPER slow.  That seems like a band-aid in that context.  A stand alone flash on a print flash print and you'd be lucky to be able to load/unload in the time it took to flash.  Just saying.

I agree when we do grow then yes we would need a larger dryer and press,  but we are not just a printer for tee shirts and such but rather a full cut and sew shop with embroidery and full sublimation.  so for us to grow we would not be looking at the print department but rather our cut and sew full sublimation department.   as this is our highest bang for the buck and the area which has the least competition honestly.  those large print orders really are not the areas we  wish to go after as there are already thousand of print shops which have that ability.  do we get large order 1000 pieces (this is large)  yes do i like doing them no..

it honestly comes down to what are you going to be printing, size orders, number of employees you are paying to run the machine, and where you want the business to grow.

for me 150 shirts per hour with p/f/p/f is not slow imo.  but some may see it as turtle speed.   but I would not have been able to get a 6 color 8 station press with a flash in the footprint which we have.  do i wish I had a 8 color yes but no room for it and only an hand full of times do I wish i had one in the last 10 years.

[GraphicDisorder]

when i print and catch alone doing a large flash average print size 12x12  it is just at 150 pieces per hour(12 dozen)  when not flashing 300 pieces (25 dozen)  with the flash going full stroke I am able to load a shirts and catch each piece coming out of the end of the dryer(nothing falls in the box)(small walk to back of dryer to the load station  8 steps) the above numbers are for print/flash/print/flash.   we are a small auto shop 1 printer and 1 cleaner.  we do more smaller jobs than 300 pieces or more jobs.  so the flashback does not slow us down.  but if you are a larger shop or do more larger orders then yes the flashback will create some issues on time.   so just going big on the press is not always the right fit for each business.  all depends on the number of employees which you are going to use to run the machine and the size jobs your shop normally prints.   

side not our dryer is rated for 36 dozen per hour.

for me I like the air rather than electric.  reason is for me and my brain it is easier to fix/find local parts for the air components.  where some of the stuff which can go wrong on the electric well i would need to find a local supplier which is not available (small market )

Also true 

Sounds like it is right for your shop now... id agree with you. What about in 5 years?  What if you need to start pumping out work, those flash backs and that dryer are going to be holding you back sounds like. I think the idea of a auto for most is to increase capacity as well as making it a bit less hard than printing manually.  If you can unload/load/walk to back of the dryer and be ready for the next pallet in the time it takes the flash back that is SUPER slow.  That seems like a band-aid in that context.  A stand alone flash on a print flash print and you'd be lucky to be able to load/unload in the time it took to flash.  Just saying.

I agree when we do grow then yes we would need a larger dryer and press,  but we are not just a printer for tee shirts and such but rather a full cut and sew shop with embroidery and full sublimation.  so for us to grow we would not be looking at the print department but rather our cut and sew full sublimation department.   as this is our highest bang for the buck and the area which has the least competition honestly.  those large print orders really are not the areas we  wish to go after as there are already thousand of print shops which have that ability.  do we get large order 1000 pieces (this is large)  yes do i like doing them no..

it honestly comes down to what are you going to be printing, size orders, number of employees you are paying to run the machine, and where you want the business to grow.

for me 150 shirts per hour with p/f/p/f is not slow imo.  but some may see it as turtle speed.   but I would not have been able to get a 6 color 8 station press with a flash in the footprint which we have.  do i wish I had a 8 color yes but no room for it and only an hand full of times do I wish i had one in the last 10 years.

Nothing wrong with what you have done, you have space constraints.  By band-aid I meant you've had to make a serious speed sacrifice by using flashbacks to save print heads to accommodate your space.

[aauusa]

I get your point but I do not think it as a sacrifice as you would not always run the auto at full speed.  I would think more than likely wrong..   I mean I own a car that says it will do 120mph but i never drive it at that speed.  is it great to have the power if I need it yes but not sure when i would need it.   when we got our press it was not for speed but rather smarter working(less labor).  really who needs the fastest printer unless you have the work and workers to run it.  but i think going from a manual press to an auto most would want max colors over speed but then this is dependent on what type of shop they are wanting to be and what jobs they are wanting to get.  did we sacrifice  with our press yes but not for speed but rather colors is where we sacrificed.  we did look at press with a dedicated flash head and the loss of the color is what kept us from that route, .  good conversation though

[jvanick]

the major thing you have to ask yourself with the flashbacks is what kind of work are you doing.

if you're doing short run work, where you don't want to register and make multiple screens, using a flash back actually can speed matters up.

150 shirts/hour would be a snails pace for us, even when we run in revolver we're at a 'shirts produced' number around 300/hr.

[GraphicDisorder]

I get your point but I do not think it as a sacrifice as you would not always run the auto at full speed.  I would think more than likely wrong..   I mean I own a car that says it will do 120mph but i never drive it at that speed.  is it great to have the power if I need it yes but not sure when i would need it.   when we got our press it was not for speed but rather smarter working(less labor).  really who needs the fastest printer unless you have the work and workers to run it.  but i think going from a manual press to an auto most would want max colors over speed but then this is dependent on what type of shop they are wanting to be and what jobs they are wanting to get.  did we sacrifice  with our press yes but not for speed but rather colors is where we sacrificed.  we did look at press with a dedicated flash head and the loss of the color is what kept us from that route, .  good conversation though

Well why do you have a car that will go 120 then if you will never drive it that fast? You do not have to run a press at its max, never said that at all. Nobody here does that. But why have a machine be the limitation is what I would argue.

Another way to look at it is your machine purchases should always be with the future in mind. If it isn't then often you will find it to be a limitation and cost you money later. 150pcs a hour is manual speed to be honest with you, but yes it would be easier to do on a auto than a manual and I am first to admit id never have a manual again. Yes as I said in the previous post you had space issues which is why you picked a press with in head flashes.  The trade off to that is speed.  Many operators can run 350-500pcs a hour alone on a auto (loading and unloading). So one could say your space is costing you 200pcs a hour at least.  Do the math on that over a year, 5 years, 10 years, or whatever the life of that press is. You could buy a very nice building/bigger space for the difference in that output.

[aauusa]

missing my point.  if you do not have jobs everyday with 500 pieces or more why do you need to go so fast.  we do teams mostly well those are 36 pieces or less runs.  so i do not need the 500 or 300 count speed.  look at it like this if you are only going couple of hundred feet no reason to go 80 mph hour.  did we think of growth when we got it 10 years ago yes,  did we grow with it yes,  do we still have more growth room with this press yes. 

you must have the work load to print 500 pieces an hour or 300 an hour.  i mean if a shop prints 800 shirts per week and are limited by space then why go for speed.  cause you still have to pay the workers and at even 300 an hour that would mean your worker is only getting part time work.

it depends on what your business is setup to do and what market you want to go with.  me I rather print a $18/$25 jersey out the door shirt rather than a $4 tee shirt.  My margin is much larger on that $18/$25 jersey rather than that $4/$5 tee shirt.   we are not a screen print business but rather a sport team business concentrating on teams and smaller orders which the other shops pass cause it does not meet the minimum.

in this last year for example i can think of  about 7 or 8 jobs which had more than 300 pieces, and 1 which had more than 1000.  but we still had close to 45,000 imprints on our auto.  so it works to about 800/900 shirt per week.    with our flashback we do not have to set up the second screen nor do we use revolver mode.  it works for us in this model of team sports.

[GraphicDisorder]

missing my point.  if you do not have jobs everyday with 500 pieces or more why do you need to go so fast.  we do teams mostly well those are 36 pieces or less runs.  so i do not need the 500 or 300 count speed.  look at it like this if you are only going couple of hundred feet no reason to go 80 mph hour.  did we think of growth when we got it 10 years ago yes,  did we grow with it yes,  do we still have more growth room with this press yes. 

Well I can think of one reason, if you print them faster that employee or you could be doing something else with the same labor hours. Thus reducing your labor costs. Going slower just to go slower may not be the best thing for your business.

you must have the work load to print 500 pieces an hour or 300 an hour.  i mean if a shop prints 800 shirts per week and are limited by space then why go for speed.  cause you still have to pay the workers and at even 300 an hour that would mean your worker is only getting part time work.

If we didn't have the work we'd find something for them to do in our other departments. We have only sent our employees home early maybe 2-3 times since 2012.

it depends on what your business is setup to do and what market you want to go with.  me I rather print a $18/$25 jersey out the door shirt rather than a $4 tee shirt.  My margin is much larger on that $18/$25 jersey rather than that $4/$5 tee shirt.   we are not a screen print business but rather a sport team business concentrating on teams and smaller orders which the other shops pass cause it does not meet the minimum.

Margins are great, print whatever you like nobody is telling you not to. I am just pointing out your flashbacks/space are costing you speed.  Which does cost you labor. You could ahve that employee run 600pcs a hour on that same press and be done 4x faster and help you with another process in your shop. If its you it would open you up to doing other things in the business.  If you are the owner take half the day off if there is nothing to do. How much is your time worth? What is your margin on a $18/25 jersey? I am curious?

in this last year for example i can think of  about 7 or 8 jobs which had more than 300 pieces, and 1 which had more than 1000.  but we still had close to 45,000 imprints on our auto.  so it works to about 800/900 shirt per week.    with our flashback we do not have to set up the second screen nor do we use revolver mode.  it works for us in this model of team sports.

We print orders as small as 24pcs, so size of job doesn't really matter much to us. We do a bunch of orders that are 24-48pcs that are 5-6-7-8 color per side, pretty great margin in those jobs. 

[aauusa]

well we agree to disagree for sure.

  I would never get rid of our flashback unless we started doing large volume tees.   as the OP was wondering which machine to go with.  for me i like workhorse products and service.  never had m&r equipment so i cannot say anything about them.   

Oh an I would love to see someone (1 person) printing a 12x12 full color logo with print flash print flash on a white screen and wow on the other 5 colors on a manual at 150 pieces per hour, with the ability to catch every shirt the way we do it with our auto.  we do have a manual and not happening  just saying not 1 person.   

[screenprintguy]

um. why buy an auto if you never see yourself producing more than 150 shirts an hour. Any shop with an auto should want to see a 350-450 per hour rate, or just buy a large color count manual press. I mean, if you plan to grow and produce. I couldn't justify that, but then again, when we got our first auto I just didn't want to pull a squeegee anymore. It only took a month of running it to know it only made sense to produce a no less than 300 per hour, but I guess everyone has their own vision for where they want their shop to go.

[aauusa]

oh and another little thing that we can do if needed.  we can also flip our outside clap head up and insert a manual flash into 1 of 5 heads  and print the same as you do.  been there done that.  so we do have a little more versatility in that respect of having a flashback or emptying a print head and inserting a manual.  also with the flashbacks if you have a second you can always put it in a head and have it work the same as the other autos flashing while other heads are printing.  you do lose the printing capability on that head but so do other autos with there dedicated flashes

[aauusa]

um. why buy an auto if you never see yourself producing more than 150 shirts an hour. Any shop with an auto should want to see a 350-450 per hour rate, or just buy a large color count manual press. I mean, if you plan to grow and produce. I couldn't justify that, but then again, when we got our first auto I just didn't want to pull a squeegee anymore. It only took a month of running it to know it only made sense to produce a no less than 300 per hour, but I guess everyone has their own vision for where they want their shop to go.

can we print the same as other autos with a dedicated flash head yes.  then are machine would be a 5 color 8 station. 

i do not get why we look at speed and only speed.  i mean if average job is 36 pieces then you tell me when you could say i printed them at 300 pieces per hour.    cause really it is only 36 pieces  that is it.   unless you say well if that job was 500 then we would have done it at this speed. heck i just printed 1 shirt in 30 seconds, set up and print done so i did 120 shirts per hour?