WOW printing WOES

[Appstro]

I have tried printing 2 to 4 color jobs where the ink does not touch. The first 10 shirts look fine but as I go around doing more and more shirts the prints start to loose their sharpness and the ink seems to start building on the other screens. Eventually the prints look smudged or bleeding looking. WOW would make the job go faster, but it looks like shizzang. What am I doing wrong? Printing on white or light shirts, regular placistol inks (not WOW inks, Is there that much difference?), offset is about 3/16 of an inch.

Thanks for your replies!

[jvanick]

so many variables don't know where to start...  I assume you're trying this on your new manual, so I assume the press holding solid registration

1.  what screen mesh counts?  -- if you're using too low of a mesh (200 or below) you'll be putting down too much ink and it'll start to build up on the bottom of the screens.

2. how's your screen tension?  -- too low and the screen will move around.

3. how's your printing technique?  (how consistent is your printing and flooding?  are you hard flooding or soft flooding?  are you needing to make multiple passes to clear the screen?  -- too much pressure on your print stroke?

[Appstro]

Yikes, uh 110 screens...
No idea about tension but the screens are newer.
Technique - I am still finding my ....technique I try to consistently flood the same and use the same angle push stroke and pressure, but it's not easy!

[mimosatexas]

So I am going to respond to your other thread about flashing and loading as well but here is a quick "answer" about wet on wet on the manual: don't do it unless necessary. The only time it is necessary is if you are doing cmyk or Sim process and the on shirt blending is crucial to the design. There is absolutely no reason to do it for spot color designs.

110 is way too low not only for wow printing but for anything but a one hit white or special effect ink honeatly. I have and use 110s in my shop, but only for white ink on mid tone shirts with small coverage that I can one hit (like a sponsor back with small logos and text for example) or for transfer printing. Everything else goes on higher mesh. I usually underage with anything from a 135 to a 180 depending on the art and shirt color, and top colors are on a minimum of 225 and up to 280.

You are also printing manually and have perfect print and flood strokes throughout a run is basically impossible. You will get tired or lose focus on occasion. Those fluctuations will cause the blur from the buildup on the backs of your screens.

I'll try to post a video as a response to your other thread, but again you shouldn't really be printing wet on wet anyway on your manual.

[Appstro]

Excellent advice sir! I was leaning toward 160 mesh as a standard screen. Is that good? Also I have to reduce my IC legacy white ALOT to even get a decent print. I have fought this white ink from the beginning.

[mimosatexas]

Honestly, there is no such thing as one standard screen.  I will say that for manual printing look into getting Murakami S mesh statics ASAP!  They are literally the best upgrade I have made that isn't a major piece of equipment.  I use 135S/150S/180S for underbases and simple spot color work on light fabrics and for discharge work.  The mesh count will depend on the fabric, the ink color, the artwork, etc.  There is no "right" answer here, just what works best for you.  I may use 135S to underbase on a comfort color shirt or a triblend because I need extra ink to mat down fibers, but I may use 180S on a poly shirt since they print so nicely.  Sometimes I may even use 225S if the art needs a nice tonal underbase with lots of halftones and mat down isn't an issue.

Any time I am printing a color over a base, I opt for as high a mesh as makes sense.  lots of halftones and a color that doesnt need extra ink for opacity? 280 is my go to mesh.  If it is a thinner ink I might opt for 225S.  Some flo colors I may even jump down to a 180S.

I literally only use my 110 mesh for some special effect inks (when my lower meshes aren't available, and I only have a handful of 60 and 86 mesh screens), or one hit whites usually only if I just don't have any 135S available in a pinch.  It just doesn't offer any benefits over other mesh in my experience.  It is sort of like a beginner workhorse mesh, but once you dial in your process it is kind of just OK for lots of stuff, but not the best for anything.

If you white ink isn't working for you, pick another ink.  I use triangle poly excel on almost everything, but use some one stroke whites as well for more specialized stuff.  I have tested tons of inks, and many of them print like crap honestly (for me, results will ALWAYS vary in different shops).  In texas we deal with tons of crazy weather and some inks just don't act well with all the variable temperatures.  I also print on a wide variety of stuff, and wasn't interested in using lots of different whites or modifying the ink all the time.  The poly excel is expensive, but it is stretchy, has okay bleed resistance, prints really easily, mats down well, doesnt care how cold it is, etc.  I pay more so I don't have to deal with bullshit when it comes to my ink...

[Frog]

I print manually, and I always print WOW whenever I can. Colors touching does not change this.
I flashed for years, but then learned that with a press that can hold registration, hallfway decent tension (I don't use rollers), and ink that is meant to be used this way, WOW makes the jobs much easier and faster.
On lights, I only use one station.
On runs of 50 or less (my current main bread and butter) I rarely have to stop and wipe. (Bandaids for too much ink build up include spraying screens with silicone spray or even Pam)
Print order can help, with smaller areas going first, lighter colors going first, but this is not a hard and fast rule.

As mentioned, when a screen is too coarse, it not only lays down more ink than needed on the shirt, but on each subsequent screen when printing WOW.
On whites and lights, I generally use 180-230. Printing white ink on dark, usually 160, with an occasional 140 on fleece.

[mimosatexas]

I don't understand how not flashing would speed anything up.  I have my flash at a height where the shirt is flashed as soon as I am rotating the platens, so I am never waiting for anything to flash.  I use 4 stations even when printing waterbased (no flash involved) and it is still faster than using a single station and printing all colors on one shirt, then unloading and loading.  Even on one color jobs I save a few seconds on a round of 4 shirts by loading and unloading as a group of 4 shirts vs loading printing and unloading an individual shirt.  i use the stopwatch on my phone for every job I do and have pretty lengthy logs on how long it takes me to print for every variable I can think of...

[abchung]

When I started WoW. I could not do it with a 230s. So I had to do it with a 305s.... Once I got better, I moved to 230 thin thread.
I see no need to go coarser... Coarser mesh for me means more ink and more emulsion.....

I don't understand how not flashing would speed anything up.

I was wondering about that at one stage.
For me, it is just savings on electricity.
Today we have a 4-colour job on light blue. We just printed 3 darker shades of blue and the last one(white) on a 150s... No flash.

[mimosatexas]

I'm not arguing it isn't good for other reasons (electricity savings, on shirt ink mixing for process/sim process, etc), but I have tried and timed every variation I can think of and saw no benefit to not flashing when it came to speed.  obviously on an auto it makes a difference because you are limited in how the shirt moves around your press in one cycle vs revolver mode slowing everything down.  The only way I can see flashing slowing down manual printing would be if your flash is slower than your print stroke, but with an IR flash at the right height they take the same amount of time.

[Sbrem]

I started printing before there were flash units, so all jobs were WOW, even dark shirts. Tight screens no matter what mesh will help a lot. In those days before we became a little more sophisticated, we categorized our meshes into fine (305), medium (140 - 160) and coarse (60). Make sure your tack is still tacky. If the first prints are OK, but get progressively worse, something is moving, and you need to determine which element that is. If your print stroke is hard, and your mesh is not as tight as it could be, then you are actually stretching the mesh during your print stroke, which will vary from print to print (you aren't a machine, your body won't let you do the exact speed and pressure each time) and you start to get messy edges on the stencil, making it look blurry or soft. Lastly, when flooding, don't push too hard, or the excess coming out below will spread out, causing the same problem. Good luck, and don't worry, we all went through this stuff. Nothing teaches like experience.

Steve

[Appstro]

Thanks guys. I think I see a pattern here. It's my mesh. AND I have not done WOW with my new press, just that Silverpress I had. I have a 5 color job coming up that could go a bit faster.

[3Deep]

You've got some very good advice so far, but one thing I will add which I think might have been said already, doing a multicolor print on a manual printing WOW vs flashing each color won't be any faster one way or the other in most cases, even guys with these big ole 12 to 16 color autos still flash multiply times between colors.

[Appstro]

Thank you. If I get a chance today I will post a pic of the design coming soon and see what mesh you guys advise.

[Frog]

You've got some very good advice so far, but one thing I will add which I think might have been said already, doing a multicolor print on a manual printing WOW vs flashing each color won't be any faster one way or the other in most cases, even guys with these big ole 12 to 16 color autos still flash multiply times between colors.

I will remain in the minority here, in that I'd rather just spin the printheads rather than the tables and the printheads. Different strokes.
Of course, a manual offers me that prerogative, while an auto doesn't.

And of course, as mentioned, less juice used, and on a 100 degree day, I only have to worry about the heat from my belt dryer which vents a lot away.