Color Fade after Initial Washing

[Orion]

We are working with Matsui Brite Disharge base. When I puchased this product, I asked about the fixer N which improves wash fastness. The supplier told me no one asks for that product and he does not stock it. So we do some testing and after a test wash the color lost a little bit of intensity. I am 99% certain that these test garments achieved full cure.  We have experinced the same fade employing the Wilflex plasticharge system. Anyone else here experiencing what we are?

[tpitman]

Not discharge but I posted a similar question regarding Fixer N to add to regular 301 OW mixes over at tshirtforums.com and haven't gotten a reply. I'd read a couple of posts there from a guy who does a lot of waterbased, and he shared some figures on additives to his Matusi ink mixes, and it seems he always adds Fixer N.

[squeegee]

I have seen some minute fading from Matsui Discharge after washing as well, nothing huge but I'm a perfectionist so I've been wondering the same thing.  I'm going to order some Fixer N and see if it helps. 
I'm running a Hix NPI 48" infrared dryer, 19' with 12' of heat, dual forced air fans, 350 degrees, 2.5-3 min dwell and am 99% sure we're curing fully as well.  I have read around that Fixer N is a good measure if you're not using a gas dryer, but can't be sure about that.

I've seen minor fading from sericol, wilflex, and rutland discharge inks as well, so maybe it is to some degree the nature of the beast.  Will report back on the results with Fixer N.

[Orion]

Thanks squeegee! My concern is will the fixer "N" speed up the ink drying in the screens.

[squeegee]

I got some coming tomorrow for a discharge run, so can let you know on that as well.

[Evo]

I have a very small electric dryer that will *just* cure wb inks but I add 3% Fixer N to all my Matsui inks, every time. It definitely improves overall wash-fastness. I've had no issues with inks drying faster because of it. Note: with discharge base make sure to mix in any additives like the Fixer N thoroughly before adding the activator. If you add them at the same time or after you will end up with a clumped up mess.

BTW - westix.com stocks all the Matsui additives.

That "washed out" look after the first couple washes will always be there to some degree. Where you don't really loose ink film or pigment in the print you will almost always have a small amount of fibrillation which may mute the color a bit. This varies from shirt to shirt, color to color. WB inks just don't slamp on the same kind of ink film that holds down the fibers.

[squeegee]

Thanks Evo.  I just got off the phone with Matsui tech support, they say fixer n adds no pot life to the ink, fixer f gives ink a one day pot life but is a lot cheaper.

Matsui needs a better website I think.

We also just ran a sample print on every Gildan color with Brite Dis Base and Brite Dis Super white, as you would expect there were a number of colors where the Brite base did not discharge correctly, BUT---and this is what surprised me, the Brite Super white looks pretty passable even on those weird colors like kelly and royal and even sports grey.  Who would have guessed?

I'm thinking now I want to run Brite Discharge white as my underbase for most of my Gildan runs (I'm printing more Gildans than anything else), I'm a little nervous about wash fastness though, guess I'll have to do some wash tests.  Anybody using the Brite Discharge super white (uncut, we do 5% water, 5% printgen, 6% activator) to UB plastisol?

[Orion]

Thanks for the info Evo.

Squeegee I just posted elsewhere that we are using the Matsui for an underbase as of now, we use your formula minus the printgen.

[squeegee]

Thanks for the info Evo.

Squeegee I just posted elsewhere that we are using the Matsui for an underbase as of now, we use your formula minus the printgen.

Thanks Orion, any issues with wash fastness?  Would you mind sharing what kind of dryer you use and what you temp and dwell is for discharge+plastisol?

[Orion]

We have an M&R Radicure with a 10 ft. tunnel. Running a dwell time of about 2 minutes, kinda of slow belt speed, but the belt is wide so  2 shirts can ride side by side. Cure temp is at 320-330. I do recommend a white-over plate if you are using a 230 or finer mesh for the under base.

[squeegee]

Thanks for that.  Have you wash tested any of your finished shirts?  If so, what do you think? 

We run discharge+plastisol at 385 on the dryer plus 2.5-3 minutes, early wash tests prior to these dryer settings were not as good as straight plastisol (I saw minor cracking in the plastisol after washing), so just trying to see if you've had any problems with durability with your settings.