IC Legacy White non-phthalate

[CSPGarrett]

I have run 10 gallons of it and it was great in opacity compared to others (I have tried a lot of whites, especially on our auto work).

It keeps coming to mind due to its extremely fast flash and high opacity.  I didn't have much flooding issues what so ever with it, actually don't really have that with any (SFLB2, Miami Superior, Triangle Phoenix, Triangle Pearl, Wilflex Amazing, a few others from Wilfex ).  The only one I can think I ever had a flood issue with was QCM and noticed it right away manually printing.

I may go back to it after going through my last 5 gallons of Phoenix I have been sitting on.

[ZooCity]

Yes, inconsistent ink is a drag. Usable though,  I used to cut half of each bucket of qcm glacier white with the next so the shift wasn't so abrupt. You can also mod the off batches to suit.  No room for that now though.

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[Rob Coleman]

Batch consistency is the issue.

Lot#:  1401023NP  Thick, caulk-like, exhibits aforementioned flooding issues, needs reducer/viscosity buster/etc.

Lot#: 1503105NP  Creamy, smooth, very similar to Quick White if not improved in it's creaminess.

Explains the varying experiences with this ink.

I trust Nazdar is not doing anything to the ink in handling to create the difference, it's most likely coming into to them inconsistently batch to batch. 

Funny we had all this conversation about what each other might be doing differently, "right" or "wrong", shop climate and advice to change other variables but for the most part it appears we all used different inks sold as the same.  The first batch (sample) we received was not useable out of the bucket.  Next batch is totally different and looks great.

Good morning!  Not sure if this info has been relayed to International Coatings?  I will forward accordingly.

SourceOne does not repack this product.  We purchase in fives and ones and resell.  Many times the viscosity stability issues are directly related to heat in transit, although it is pretty early in the year for that to happen.  Talk to anyone in Texas from the massive heat wave about 5- years ago?  Every ink manufacturer was having issues with white ink starting to thicken (gel) under heat).  Whites are more prone to this due to the high solids content (TIO2), as well as the lower gelation temps required for fast flashing.  It is a bit of the tail wagging the dog!

Real numbers:  A few years ago, I took a bucket of ink, put in in my trunk in Atlanta, GA in August at 8am.  Came outside at 1pm -- 95F air temp.  Trunk temp was 135F.  Bucket temp was 155F.  Had a nice boat anchor.

[KevWilso]

Batch consistency is the issue.

Lot#:  1401023NP  Thick, caulk-like, exhibits aforementioned flooding issues, needs reducer/viscosity buster/etc.

Lot#: 1503105NP  Creamy, smooth, very similar to Quick White if not improved in it's creaminess.

Explains the varying experiences with this ink.

I trust Nazdar is not doing anything to the ink in handling to create the difference, it's most likely coming into to them inconsistently batch to batch. 

Funny we had all this conversation about what each other might be doing differently, "right" or "wrong", shop climate and advice to change other variables but for the most part it appears we all used different inks sold as the same.  The first batch (sample) we received was not useable out of the bucket.  Next batch is totally different and looks great.

Good morning!  Not sure if this info has been relayed to International Coatings?  I will forward accordingly.

SourceOne does not repack this product.  We purchase in fives and ones and resell.  Many times the viscosity stability issues are directly related to heat in transit, although it is pretty early in the year for that to happen.  Talk to anyone in Texas from the massive heat wave about 5- years ago?  Every ink manufacturer was having issues with white ink starting to thicken (gel) under heat).  Whites are more prone to this due to the high solids content (TIO2), as well as the lower gelation temps required for fast flashing.  It is a bit of the tail wagging the dog!

Real numbers:  A few years ago, I took a bucket of ink, put in in my trunk in Atlanta, GA in August at 8am.  Came outside at 1pm -- 95F air temp.  Trunk temp was 135F.  Bucket temp was 155F.  Had a nice boat anchor.

Agree.  Temperature change plays a huge role with inks.   During the winter months we get calls saying inks are too thick, and in extreme heat same type calls.  That summer he speaks in Texas of we couldn't order in low cure additive, because by the time I got it they were bricks, and door props.   I also learned that summer the hard way...  Do not store your spot gun in hot areas of your shop with spot fluid in it!  We replaced guns that would last only days before breaking,  the vapor temperature of those chemicals is low and the gas was eating the internal components.

[Frog]

Though recognizing the danger of getting a little more off track from the ICwhite ink inconsistency issue, it's very interesting that the vapors of the same fluid that the spotting gun usually uses, was causing damage.


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[Rob Coleman]

Batch consistency is the issue.

Lot#:  1401023NP  Thick, caulk-like, exhibits aforementioned flooding issues, needs reducer/viscosity buster/etc.

Lot#: 1503105NP  Creamy, smooth, very similar to Quick White if not improved in it's creaminess.

Explains the varying experiences with this ink.

I trust Nazdar is not doing anything to the ink in handling to create the difference, it's most likely coming into to them inconsistently batch to batch. 

Funny we had all this conversation about what each other might be doing differently, "right" or "wrong", shop climate and advice to change other variables but for the most part it appears we all used different inks sold as the same.  The first batch (sample) we received was not useable out of the bucket.  Next batch is totally different and looks great.

Good morning!  Not sure if this info has been relayed to International Coatings?  I will forward accordingly.

SourceOne does not repack this product.  We purchase in fives and ones and resell.  Many times the viscosity stability issues are directly related to heat in transit, although it is pretty early in the year for that to happen.  Talk to anyone in Texas from the massive heat wave about 5- years ago?  Every ink manufacturer was having issues with white ink starting to thicken (gel) under heat).  Whites are more prone to this due to the high solids content (TIO2), as well as the lower gelation temps required for fast flashing.  It is a bit of the tail wagging the dog!

Real numbers:  A few years ago, I took a bucket of ink, put in in my trunk in Atlanta, GA in August at 8am.  Came outside at 1pm -- 95F air temp.  Trunk temp was 135F.  Bucket temp was 155F.  Had a nice boat anchor.

Agree.  Temperature change plays a huge role with inks.   During the winter months we get calls saying inks are too thick, and in extreme heat same type calls.  That summer he speaks in Texas of we couldn't order in low cure additive, because by the time I got it they were bricks, and door props.   I also learned that summer the hard way...  Do not store your spot gun in hot areas of your shop with spot fluid in it!  We replaced guns that would last only days before breaking,  the vapor temperature of those chemicals is low the gas was eating the internal components.

The good news is that winter viscosity build is a "false" body and can be broken down with shear/temp.  Summer aging -- well that is irreversible.  The resins swell under heat and absorb plasticizer (gel/cure process).  No amount of shear will return it.  Some folks add reducers, BUT that does NOT change the now larger particle size, thus potential issues with clearing mesh openings.

[ZooCity]

It could well be transport issues but I have to be frank, we've never seen this with Quick White over many years of all kinds of weather.

[Colin]

Chris:

How different are the flash times? 

If the Legacy is faster - That could easily be the base issue.  Those resins swell at lower temps....

Let us know.

[Kent Hudson]

Hello Group, maybe I can add a little info to this engaging conversation. Starting my career some 38 years ago as a printer, I can certainly relate to all the discussion on controlling the variables. For the past 25 years I’ve been working for textile ink manufactures. First with the big R and now with IC. There have been many changes in textile inks over the years. The inks we worked with in the 70’s & 80’s were usually impossible to print without modification, especially HP whites and HP colors. Due to the high pigment loading in whites and other HP inks, they tend to age over time and become thicker. The solid ingredients start to absorb the liquids and the ink becomes thicker and stickier. You can add a modifier and improve the printability, but it will never be the same as it was when it was fresh. Yes white ink just like bread is better when it’s fresh. This can help explain some of the variety of comments related to this topic.

As example; I believe its Chris, ZooCity that is having a hard time printing with a sample of Legacy Lot# 1401023. This sample is 16 months old made in January of 2014. Next he received Lot# 1503105. This ink is 1 month old manufactured in March 2015. In reading through all the input from others I believe if we were to examine the age of the ink it may help explain the different experiences. If your distributor sells a fair amount of any ink they will turn this inventory several times a year. This means you will always receive fresh ink. Quarts which are often used as samples can sit on the shelf for longer periods. Gallons, pails and drums usually move within a couple of months. Ink companies don’t usually keep inventory for more that month as we make several batches of white a week just to keep up with demand.
 
There can also be issues as Rob mentioned if the ink is introduced to heat during transit. Heat aging is even harder to modify and at some point renders the ink unusable.
 
Not to say that all ink companies are perfect. We can also make mistakes. I hope that we can and do work with anyone having issues and help them to resolve the variables of printing plastisol inks.

[Frog]

Glad to see you here Kent. What you say about old stock with white and small containers even being worse, really puts the small shop or part-time printer in a little bit of a bind. For instance, I have a half a gallon of low bleed white that's well over a year old. I just don't need low bleed ink nearly as much as I need cotton. The best I can do, is store it in relatively good conditions.


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[pwalsh]

Hello Group, maybe I can add a little info to this engaging conversation. Starting my career some 38 years ago as a printer, I can certainly relate to all the discussion on controlling the variables. For the past 25 years I’ve been working for textile ink manufactures. First with the big R and now with IC. There have been many changes in textile inks over the years. The inks we worked with in the 70’s & 80’s were usually impossible to print without modification, especially HP whites and HP colors. Due to the high pigment loading in whites and other HP inks, they tend to age over time and become thicker. The solid ingredients start to absorb the liquids and the ink becomes thicker and stickier. You can add a modifier and improve the printability, but it will never be the same as it was when it was fresh. Yes white ink just like bread is better when it’s fresh. This can help explain some of the variety of comments related to this topic.

As example; I believe its Chris, ZooCity that is having a hard time printing with a sample of Legacy Lot# 1401023. This sample is 16 months old made in January of 2014. Next he received Lot# 1503105. This ink is 1 month old manufactured in March 2015. In reading through all the input from others I believe if we were to examine the age of the ink it may help explain the different experiences. If your distributor sells a fair amount of any ink they will turn this inventory several times a year. This means you will always receive fresh ink. Quarts which are often used as samples can sit on the shelf for longer periods. Gallons, pails and drums usually move within a couple of months. Ink companies don’t usually keep inventory for more that month as we make several batches of white a week just to keep up with demand.
 
There can also be issues as Rob mentioned if the ink is introduced to heat during transit. Heat aging is even harder to modify and at some point renders the ink unusable.
 
Not to say that all ink companies are perfect. We can also make mistakes. I hope that we can and do work with anyone having issues and help them to resolve the variables of printing plastisol inks.

Kent: Welcome to the TSB Community.  It's great to have industry veterans participate in the dialogue on the Boards.  Looking forward to future posts from you and the team at International Coatings
 


 

[ZooCity]

Welcome Kent and that's a very informative post.  I was aware of some type of shelf life to plastisol but nothing along the lines of 14months out from production the ink losing many of it's better properties and gaining some unfavorable ones. 

The nerd in me wants to know- is this plasticizer leaching out primarily?  Or is the white making undesirable bonds with the plastisol base?

Colin, there's scant left of the qt samp and it was modded with a small amount of viscosity buster so I don't think we can get a good comparison there.   I guess I can put a little cup of this fresh white ink aside and see what happens in 14mo.....

[DannyGruninger]

I wanted to add a completely interesting bit of info on this discussion with this ink........ As most of you know I've had to modify my legacy white in order to flood on the auto since I began testing it. I've gone through around 80 gallons with most of those being different batches of 5's. I never could get the ink to flood correctly unless I modified it. Here's where this gets interesting, we installed our first Sroque machine end of last week so I've printed on it a couple full days now. I took the same unmodified legacy white ink that I could NEVER get to flood, and gave it a shot on the sroque machine. Straight out of the bucket the ink that would not flood on my m&r machines is now flooding damn near perfectly on my sroque machine. I believe a lot has to do with the design of the sroque floodbar but I thought it was very interesting that the same exact ink that I could never get to flood right on my ch3 or diamondback now floods like it should......I just found this super interesting and figured you guys would as well....

[ZooCity]

That is super interesting.  The profile of a winged flood can't vary that much seeing as it has to be straight up to orient the wings correctly. Maybe the material and/or coating?

[jvanick]

I believe a lot has to do with the design of the sroque floodbar

can you post a pic of the sroque flood bar next to the m&r floodbar? 

we tried with m&r 'standard' floodbars, a workhorse chopper flood bar, and winged floodbars... interestingly enough, the worst was with the winged floodbars... I'm guessing because the wings gave extra 'area' for the ink to grab on to... it would quite literally lift the entire block of ink up with the floodbar.