Mesh and LPI

[3Deep]

Ok not being a very high tech printer here, what is the benefit of going over 65 lpi and what is the highest mesh count we use in garment printing.  I was just looking at art in the what have you printed section and see some really high lpi art being printing.  I see some art being printed that might be light years for me to get close to or even print LOL.

[ABuffington]

for me the art determines the line count.  Soft blends of pastel colors, faces, subtle tone changes appear better with a finer dot of 65-85 line or stochaistic.  Bright contrasty art like Sports art, Super Bowl Rings, band art appear sharper and with more contrast in the 45 - 55 line range.  Also cheap shirts = low line counts, finer tighter shirt faces or high singles construction = higher line counts.  A 50 line count by a great separator and printer will look flawless, at 85 it would lose much of the details and high contrast.

45 line- Athletic Art, cheap shirts, high contrast art.
55 line - Good middle of the road - Sim Process, Band Shirts, Character Art
65 line - Flesh tones, soft backgrounds, printing on white or lights.  If dark, face of shirt needs to be tight to avoid dots falling in the valleys.
85 line - high end concert shirts, extreme small details like faces in a band, or small tonal areas of design where a coarser halftone would only have a minimal number of dots.
Stochastic Dots - Very small details, short tonal throughs, Index type of art over a halftone baseplate.

[Dottonedan]

for me the art determines the line count.  Soft blends of pastel colors, faces, subtle tone changes appear better with a finer dot of 65-85 line or stochaistic.  Bright contrasty art like Sports art, Super Bowl Rings, band art appear sharper and with more contrast in the 45 - 55 line range.  Also cheap shirts = low line counts, finer tighter shirt faces or high singles construction = higher line counts.  A 50 line count by a great separator and printer will look flawless, at 85 it would lose much of the details and high contrast.

45 line- Athletic Art, cheap shirts, high contrast art.
55 line - Good middle of the road - Sim Process, Band Shirts, Character Art
65 line - Flesh tones, soft backgrounds, printing on white or lights.  If dark, face of shirt needs to be tight to avoid dots falling in the valleys.
85 line - high end concert shirts, extreme small details like faces in a band, or small tonal areas of design where a coarser halftone would only have a minimal number of dots.
Stochastic Dots - Very small details, short tonal throughs, Index type of art over a halftone baseplate.

I wanted to get my .02 cents in, but ....He's covered it. Good post.

[3Deep]

I second that Buff's post is one I will copy and save

[Printficient]

As to mesh count the formula is 3.5-5 x lpi.  We sell 355 mesh to some textile printers.

[Dottonedan]

As to mesh count the formula is 3.5-5 x lpi.  We sell 355 mesh to some textile printers.

I'll agree to the -5  but I'd suggest if someone ants to use a lower number than start at the 4 (as the bare minimum). The reason is, in any case, nobody WANTS to lose those small dots. In fact, everyone wants to keep them. THe smaller they can hold in a halftone without press issues, the better. So 3.5 is risking it on any situation.


Take a 305 mesh
305 divided by 3.5 give you 87 (rounded to 85) line screen. Don't try that at home (if you want to hold the small dots). This is where we see so many people printing shirts with drop off at the ends. Ya know, that zig zag jaggie fade that so many people do? You can avoid that easily.


305 divided by 4    = 76   lpi *rounded to 75  Still too high to hold the small dots.


305 divided by 4.5 = 67.8 lpi (rounded to 65lpi).  For me, still too high for the small dots.


305 divided by 5     = 61   lpi (rounded to 60lpi (MAX). Thats going to work best...and I am even fine using 55lpi (since the difference between 55 and 60 is not visibly worth mentioning (but), will hold even more on the 305 mesh. 




Now, I will agree that the lower the mesh you use, the more you can lower that number, but you'd have to get down to a 80 mesh before I'd use 3.5




Maybe Al Buffington can chime in here, but I'm not a believer in Murakami promoting using 55lpi on a 280S
It's right at the cusp of not getting held (by the better ones) and not at all by the average.


Sure, you CAN use it, (and even get most of the gradation) but I'd drop that to 50lpi to assist in holding those smaller dots. Sure, I know the benefits of more open area, and I love open area. The more, the better....but, that still doesn't eliminate all threads in the way. It just provided less of them. So "some of" those small dots will get blocked out by the thread diameter being in the road of my small dots. So the more I increase the size of my dots by lowering the line screen, the more I can achieve holding all of my information.


I say, don't be afraid of using a lower lpi. I know everyone has been told that smaller is better dots is better, but I say go big. Well, not too big but big enough.


The argument I expect to hear from many is that (nobody can hold those small dots anyways). Well, sure, cuz everyones using the wrong line screens.  Another that is often said, is that the threads will be eaten up (lost) the small dots deep into the weave making them useless. Well, thats possible on a horrible quality tee, but then again, most tees aren't (that poor) these days and then you have those that say they print 75, 85 and 90 lpi.  Do they not want the small dots?  What about DTG?  They kick out 7 pico-liter specks of colored ink that is near the size of (if not smaller than) a 1% dot in a 100lpi. I know how that goes as well. The process is random, like stochastic so you don't see any lost specks of color hidden deep in the valley of the garment threads...but they do get on the sides and on the top...and so can my 3% in a 50lpi.


I know there is a ratio that works and there is compensation to be done as you get higher (in order to hold small dots). But using the best lpi for the job is going to make it all that much easier so i say, don't make it hard on yourself. Use 5.

[brandon]

Haha awesome. Thanks Dan. Great read!

[mimosatexas]

I'm sure the math supports not using a 55lpi on lower than a 300 or so, BUT I have been using 55lpi on 225S recently with very good results.  On a perfectly uniform fade you may notice issues at the high and low end, but I do a lot of color on top of color fades and small shadows, and a lot of uniform sized halftone fields on top of solid colors to lower my screen counts, even on spot jobs whenever possible, and there is a world of difference on how good the final print looks when I use 55 instead of 45 lpi.  If I am losing a few percent, it far less noticeable than the difference in size of a 45 lpi dot and a 55 lpi dot.

I have also started using SP1400 exclusively for any screens with halftones.  It will hold dots MUCH better than the HVP I use for spot jobs, at the cost of longer exposure of course.

[Maxie]

You guys have summed up the theory very well but I suggest testing to see what lpi your system (screen, emulsion, coating, exposing, etc) can hold.    Blue Moon has a test film posted, if you expose and print this you can see if you are capable of printing the higher lpi's.

[Dottonedan]

I'm sure the math supports not using a 55lpi on lower than a 300 or so, BUT I have been using 55lpi on 225S recently with very good results.  On a perfectly uniform fade you may notice issues at the high and low end, but I do a lot of color on top of color fades and small shadows, and a lot of uniform sized halftone fields on top of solid colors to lower my screen counts, even on spot jobs whenever possible, and there is a world of difference on how good the final print looks when I use 55 instead of 45 lpi.  If I am losing a few percent, it far less noticeable than the difference in size of a 45 lpi dot and a 55 lpi dot.

I have also started using SP1400 exclusively for any screens with halftones.  It will hold dots MUCH better than the HVP I use for spot jobs, at the cost of longer exposure of course.

As Maxie said, you can really tell where you are at (on what mesh) with a test like that.  Now, if'n you're happy where you're at, then who am I to say you're wrong. If it's selling and the customer is happy and you're happy, then it's the right one for you. If may not be for the ones who really look to hold the smaller dots. And the info is there when you need it.  There are many many printers out there that love what they do and how they do it and they feel it's good and comparable or better than others. In many case's, it is true.


There are also ways to cover up/hide any drop off with other colors/shades/tones over top as you indicated. The areas you mentioned of halftone uniform fields on top of solids is a good example of being able to take advantage of smaller dots.  You, achieve this by using smaller dots due to a higher line count.  I'm saying, you can do this at a lower line count "better" because you can use smaller %'s in those fields. For example, you may use a minimum of 10-7% at 55lpi while I on the other hand use 3-4% at 50lpi.  Both dots can be very close in size (for that specific area) yet I can fade mine off to the shirt just a little smoother.


I agree that with your lower mesh, you get better vibrancy, and that alone has it's own merits. Thats not quite where I'm headed with the use of the smaller dots since I want them to kinda fade away into the shirt anyways.  Now, I expect you to be a little more savvy in your use of halftones and printing. I've seen your post before about the dot "shape" and know you look out for the little things. So I'm saying I'm sure you do very well at your printing.


My point of the comparison was a little tighter than yours. The visual difference between a 50 and a 55 or a 55 and a 60 is not very much at all. So I choose the 50 versus a 55 or I choose the 55 versus a 60 any time. It's practically the same thing and you hold 1-2% more dots (easier).

[Dottonedan]

This I've read in the past that this is (the way) to determine what your smallest line count should be. Check what your smallest dot can be on your particular mesh by creating 1" squares and fill them with 1%, 2% 3% 4% and 5% on up to 10% at whatever line screen you prefer for that mesh, print it to film and lay it over an uncoated screen.


They say, to avoid any issues with mesh interference, your dot size should cover at least one mesh opening and two mesh threads. If you prefer a particular lpi but the 5% dots will get blocked out, then you have to accept that and take it for what it is.  I can appreciate variables of using thicker/thinner diameter threads and smaller or larger open areas and can say that it's possible to get by with one mesh thread and one mesh opening with thinner ink.  Emulsion coating technique is another factor in what you can hold. Longer channels for the ink to pass using thicker inks make for plugged up highlight holes.  Thicker lay down of inks with a high line count make for plugged hold highlight dots etc.

[Printficient]

Dan, I think you misunderstand.  It's not the mesh divided by, it's the line count multiplied by.  Example.  55x3.5=192.5.  So in theory a 55 line art can be held on a 196.

[Frog]

Dan, I think you misunderstand.  It's not the mesh divided by, it's the line count multiplied by.  Example.  55x3.5=192.5.  So in theory a 55 line art can be held on a 196.

It's the same math, just a matter of choosing a direction constant and either matching line count to mesh, or mesh to line count.

[Dottonedan]

Yes, in theory, it will work. Or more so (by what most everyone has done over the years, it works...up to the small dots.

If you are desire if to use 3.5   If you want to use 55 lpi than I'd say (up your mesh to the next highest mesh. 196 bumped up to a 230 or 305 . Then, you can hold the small dots. Heck if it's the murakami mesh you want to use, is the 310s I think it is.

[tonypep]

For our blends we can hold 55 on 230 with DC and get pretty seamless transition