Statics, Retensionables, Mesh, How They Affected This Shop

[alan802]

I started a long thread yesterday that I had worked on for about 8 hours because I was going back and forth from production back to my desk only to lose it during the shutdown yesterday.  I wanted to give a real-world account of what the different types of screens (statics, roller frames, mesh, etc) have done to our production capabilities.  The thread about where to buy the tightest statics inspired me to do this because I think there is something that is rarely ever talked about directly.  It's always talked about indirectly, the fact that we aren't making money unless shirts are coming down the belt.  But CTS and LED have led that discussion and deservedly so, but despite the greatness of the latest technology, there is something else that can put more shirts on the belt at a vastly higher rate than any CTS or LED unit and it doesn't cost as much.  John managed to bring it up but maybe it was the wrong time and place and the OP didn't much care for the way he went about it, but he touched on a subject that get's others riled up because it's something that they are neglecting, or simply don't want to address (for whatever reason, good or bad).  We talk about how fast guys can set jobs up, develop stencils, but what about the most important part of getting shirts on the belt, PRINTING?  I'm not trying to challenge others on how they run their shop and what tools they use but rather reach out to those who want to be more efficient and faster in running the auto.  For those who aren't interested in this subject feel free to interject or add anything you feel appropriate, but you don't need to validate why you choose not to use S thread or retensionables, or how you can achieve the same quality as I can and do things just as fast, that's not the purpose of this thread.  I'm not interested in why you are where you are in a production sense.  I am interested in those who want to get more efficient.  Those who feel differently than I do about the importance or impact the screen has on the process tell us why you feel that way.

Does anyone here have trouble running their auto as fast as they want?  What types of production speeds do you want to achieve?  Am I the only one that tries to run the auto at 750-900 pieces per hour regardless of the complexity of the job?

The answers may not reflect an issue but rather a different approach, for example, not running the auto with a full crew and deciding to have one person loading and unloading instead of having a dedicated unloader and loader side by side.  If you choose to run your auto at 350/hr and don't want to change a thing that is ok, again, I'm not trying to push any buttons and start a pretentious debate where we all take shots at each other.

Whenever the discussion about statics and retensionables comes up it usually gets heated and I've said all the things I'm about to say before, but these stats that I'm about to throw out there are real.  There is no hyperbole to better my argument and make me look better than we are, I'm trying to go about this as honestly as humanly possible so that others may learn something.  And to preface all of this, it applies to the plastisol printers and not really to the WB/DC guys.  I've relented over the years in the argument that shops can achieve high quality using busted up statics with low tension, but truthfully it's subjective and the real heart of the debate is the bottom line...putting shirts on the belt, how fast and efficiently do you do it.  So if you can achieve good quality prints with a 15 newton static, I have the next question for you, how long does it take you to setup a 4 color on darks, a 7 color sim process on darks, etc AND HOW FAST CAN YOU PRINT THOSE JOBS?  Can you run that 4 color on black shirts at 800/hr with those 15 newton screens?  If so, does the quality suffer at those speeds?

The screen (mesh and frame) are the engine of our proverbial car.  The squeegee is the fuel.  Now I understand that not every shop here is treating this as a race, but the analogy really translates well for those who are looking to maximize the press speed.  For those who don't give a damn about it, that's perfectly fine, you know how to run your business and I'm not trying to convince you of something you don't have any interest in.  To each their own and I sincerely mean it.

If we need to get across the country quickly we don't take a train, or a car, we fly.  If we have a 2500 piece job, 5 color spot on darks and we need high quality and we need it done as fast as possible, how do we achieve that?  I know how we do it, but do others realize what is the engine here and what drives this car we call screen printing?  I know I sound like a blowhard a lot of the time but when I'm passionate about something I know no other way to go about it.  A properly tensioned screen is half the battle, the proper mesh count for the application is the other half.  I really don't concern myself so much about the actual frame really but I know that retensionables gives us ultimate control over our engine.  Some don't need that much control, or want it, so a good static with good mesh at good working tension is fine to achieve a fast press speed.  The best thing about the newest S thread statics from Murakami is they hold very good tension after a few runs through production and one of those screens will outperform a busted static with regular mesh and 15 newtons by leaps and bounds.  The key isn't so much what it's attached to, but the specs and tension of that mesh.

I'm going to say that I know the answers to those questions when it comes to the local shops that I frequent or speak to the owners that bring in their embroidery jobs, and the 3 shops that I communicate with that do roughly the same volume as we do have multiple autos, but we do not.  Ignore the bragadocious type comments from me because I don't know of a different way to say that we are able to do roughly twice the work per auto than our local competition.  I know a shop that was doing a 7 color sim process on darks a few weeks ago that was producing that job at a whopping 190 pieces per hour on a 10 color automatic.  That same job here would run at 750/hr as a real-time production speed.  That's a difference of 560 pieces per hour.  There are many differences between the two shops, but I will argue that the biggest reasons are that shop uses statics but with regular mesh and low tensions.  There are other important gaps but none that will have as much impact as those 2.

The shops that frequent this forum are quite a bit above our local competition when it comes to production efficiency and quality, but when I read a comment the other day about not having the time to spend stretching screens and maintaining them I was reminded of how much more work we do over the course of a year than we did 5 years ago when we were using regular mesh with low tension.  We'd struggle to get 3-4 jobs done per day on average when we used that combo.  Now we do that by lunch time and we have less payroll/labor now than we did then, so the number of hours that we have eliminated have more than made up for the extra time it takes to take care of roller frames.  To break it down to an easy way to comprehend, if we still only had 3-4 to do per day, we'd have a surplus of about 5 hours a day to do whatever we wanted to do. I know John's comments on the other thread rubbed someone the wrong way but unfortunately for everyone that doesn't like the way John goes about posting here, he's right.  The shop that uses roller frames and great mesh will produce more in less time than the shop using regular mesh statics so the excuse of not having the time to spend on roller frames doesn't hold up to scrutiny very well.  I know people will argue because of pride and what not, but most of us know the limitations on the tools we use and which tools perform the best.  And I'm not trying to push roller frames on anyone per say, but I'm trying to convey that even though things are different from shop to shop, there is still a "BEST" way to do every process and there are "best tools" as well.  A compromise to rollers and S thread is the S thread static.  Most (all of the sane ones) guys I've spoken to that have made an effort to try out S thread in static or roller frame has said they'd never go back to regular mesh.   

If you're one of the very few that can use a 15 newton static and regular mesh counts on a 5 color on darks and still run your auto at 800+/hr then consider yourself exceptional and keep doing what you're doing if you're ok with the quality.  But if you're a shop that is running the auto at 400/hr but WANT to run it faster and be more efficient, you can make a huge gain by using a better engine in your shop's race car.

I hope nobody gets offended by anything I wrote, but I encourage everyone that wants to get more out of their production crew, take a look at what you're doing and observe why you aren't running the auto as fast as you want.  I know that retensionables and S thread isn't for everyone, but it's the main reason why we don't print the cupcake jobs much/if any faster than the tough jobs.  Let's try to keep this civil and nobody take anything personal, keep it factual as best you can and let's talk about this like professionals.

[tonypep]

H2o don't care The Chameleon just posted in the Printed Lately thread is on old statics. Popular characters=screens libraried. Set ups in minutes largely due to how the art is made. Prints on zero dwell. High tension hurts us but we're a little different. But thanks for the novel Alan

[ebscreen]

All Newman's here. I've used so few statics in comparison that I couldn't tell you the difference, never used them in a production
environment anyways.

Aside from all the benefits mentioned, I look at the idea of Newman's as being self-reliant. I could see a spring letting loose
or something and somehow taking out our entire screen inventory. With statics we'd be mega screwed. With Newman's, I'd just
be pist. I suppose having a stretcher would be the same.

I will say this though, S mesh on Newmans allowed us to finish the Giants World Series run a couple hours early. That's huge.
It is actually more difficult to stretch to lower tensions though, and I brought a couple 150s passed 32N on the
first go'round. Those didn't last long.

[inkman996]

Alan the way i see it is if you are willing to source and maintain decent tensioned statics then it is a reasonable model to go by. What i mean is do not buy some statics from some local company that mass produces cheapie screens and never ever recycle them till they rip. In our case I make sure all our statics are still holding decent work hardened tension, have no rips or holes and excessive haze. I have no problem packing up a box of dozen frames for remeshing or taking them to my guy down the road that specializes in making screens. My screens are all good production capable screens. We print at the same speeds you describe all the time. No not every shop will operate like that, many buy a screen and think it is a working screen till the day it rips, some shops probably have inventories many years old and have not bought a new screen in years.

Another way i see it is like bread. I could go to the bakery and buy a decent loaf of bread for my sandwiches, or I can go buy a high end bread maker and the ingredients and spend the time and make my own home made bread. Regardless as long as i buy a decent quality loaf from a quality bakery i am getting the same thing.

[Gilligan]

But if you are a sandwich (t-shirt) shop...

Even subway makes it's own bread.

[inkman996]

But if you are a sandwich (t-shirt) shop...

Even subway makes it's own bread.

Most fast food chains out source their bulk supplies. Things like cheese etc.

[jsheridan]

It comes down to the physics of transferring a viscous liquid (ink) through a tiny opening

High tension mesh doesn't deflect away from the flood

The same tension has the ability to spring back quickly under the load from sheering.

The faster you can flood and sheer, the faster you can get a shirt on the belt.

here we are about to head into 2015..

in 2007 using high tension frames Lon and the guys were able to print 917 units per hout.. with specialty inks!

in 2008.. they ramped that up to 1200 pieces per hour.. on black shirts!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4bs6ZiEN1Y

[Gilligan]

But if you are a sandwich (t-shirt) shop...

Even subway makes it's own bread.

Most fast food chains out source their bulk supplies. Things like cheese etc.

You said Bread Mike... don't go moving the goal post now. :p

[Gilligan]

One could also argue why does a butcher sharpen his own knives vs just buying new knives?

He knows it's done right and it saves him money (and time, since his knife is SHARP).

[alan802]

I have seen the comment about not having time for rollers many times over the years and I would bet that the vast majority of those shops that make that comment are nowhere close to running their autos at a short dwell time.  I'd also wager that they are double stroking everything, putting two base layers down (not double stroking but PFPF) before the top colors go on, all sorts of work-arounds that they wouldn't be doing if they had good screens.  I find it very interesting that there is so much talk going on about the new technology that will help put a couple hundred more shirts on the belt per day in the best case scenario but we're talking about doing something that can put 400-500 more shirts/PER HOUR and it doesn't get much talk.  Maybe all of us here are running our autos at full speed and I'm wrong with my assumptions/observations but I think it has more to do with a negative stigma to admitting production isn't what it should be.  I understand that it's not as easy to talk about things that aren't running great and not everyone likes to put themselves out there and admit they could use some advice or help.  What would others think if you said the fastest you can run a 4 color job on black shirts was 350/hr?  Personally I wouldn't think any less of anyone that was telling us all they weren't where they wanted to be.  If you're stoked at running your auto at 500/hr on a cupcake job and none of this interests you then I can certainly respect that.

I just think that with all the buzz about how the new technology is helping shops increase their production capacity some discussion needs to be done on the screens and how they can give you increases that a CTS and an LED together can't come close to touching. 

[DannyGruninger]

I don't have much time to add to this but in MY SHOP I felt like I was a hack printer when using 12-15 newton statics.....My printing got way better, way faster, and much more controlled when I started running properly tensioned newmans.......I feel like I live and die by my screens in my shop here and in the last few years great screens have helped me step up my game probably more then anything. Between great screens and smart mesh my shop has improved tremendously.


I think we can sum it up that the waterbase guys don't need great screens because they are mashing that ink down into the fabric but for guys that want to print better/faster I think tension is key. I have a lot of interest in the shurloc stuff so we might be going that direction depending on a few things but my shop will never go away from good/high tension and rollers....... The speed we print at and how fast we setup jobs on press is a direct relation to having great screens here. Just sayin 

[sqslabs]

Great post Alan.. 

I've only had a tension meter for about five months now, and the day I got it I was horrified to find out what I had been running in my shop. Shortly after I got my first 150S static and haven't looked back.  My shop currently runs 80-90% S-mesh (mostly on retensionables), and we plan to be at least 90% Newmans by the end of the year. We've seen significant changes in setup time, print quality, print speed (no double stroking!), and overall stress level of the shop. 

As a matter of fact, I think I'm gonna invite my employees to the parking lot tomorrow, crank up some Geto Boys, and pull an Office Space on our old screens.

[mimosatexas]

Not an auto owner, but holy hell if I don't love S-mesh.  I can only imagine how awesome it is running it on an auto where you can pretty much double your mesh count on things like the base, retain the same opacity and use less emulsion/ink/pressure/etc.  I'm going to eventually try out some rollers, but the S-mesh statics are so incredibly better than standard mesh screens I would honestly rather stop printing than go back to using all regular mesh.  I also print tons of waterbased, and I would say while the tension doesnt really matter, having the higher percentage of open area has let me print using higher mesh counts, hold better detail, and have far fewer issues with dry-in on longer runs or any issues with pigments getting stuck or whatever.

[starchild]

We throw the word tension around and I'm guessing it's being used interchangably with stretching.

Bringing a mesh to a specific tension does not guarantee that it's in great 'shape'. First the info we have about the mesh is important because it's necessary to know it's warp and weft count in order to identify which side should go on the long and short side of the frame because the short side will develop higher tension way sooner than the long side. And if you install the lesser count on the short side of the frame, you run the risk of having an imbalanced screen put into production. The opening would be rectangle and favoring one side of thread as opposed to being dead center of all four threads that creates the opening.  Now the static tension (the one I think you guys talk about) only comes into play based on the elongation properties of the mesh (how stretchy it is) and the warp and weft count, to get that squared, balanced open area. Not achieving this is what is responsible for the drop in tension during production or just sitting.

This is just one part of correctly stretching mesh onto a frame. If you use a mesh with balanced warp/weft threads, like smart mesh, then it does not matter which end of the mesh is up when putting it on a screen. Plus the low elongation tendency of smart mesh means you can get that square balanced opening without high tension.

That said, you've got to trust the screen maker that you buy from to be using best practices. Or do it yourself. This is where the static versus retensionable debate comes in, not the frame but the mesh selection. The other benefits of retensionables are obvious.

Dynamic tension is what is used for ink transfer and is achieved by setting off contact.

Alan I would say the squeegee is the fuel injector and the ink the fuel.  The screen is the engine and the press the vehicle



Sent using Tapatalk

[Screened Gear]

Alan,

Your post is not 100% correct. You are giving the credit for all the advancements of your shop to roller frames/high tension. That is not fair. Its not even right to say that. You should not mislead these poor people. Be honest with us. Please don't tell me that you don't even know the truth. When you got that first screen it didn't fix everything. You didn't go from 4 jobs a day to 8 because of just the frame your using. You have to give yourself credit. You of all people on here have worked your ass off to learn, test and measure to become better over the years. Yes the frames helped but in another shop those frames would not have the same results. What about the other tools you use. I know you have tons of tools that have helped you. Even the new equipment you have in your shop. All of these played a role. Then during all of this you even did what I feel is the most important part of screen printing. You learned how to use your press. You learned how to dial it in. You learned what it needed to make a better print.

Alan, you learned how to be a great printer and run a shop efficiently, stop trying to give all the credit to the tools.