Band-Aids or Tools/split from Fibrillation frustration Thread

[Screened Gear]

Another thing. Stay away from smoothing screens, rollers, double squeegees, beveled squeegees, hard flooding, s-mesh, super high tension screens and high EOM emulsion. All these are band aids for something your not doing right. Learn your press with basic stuff. Get a feel for what your press needs when something is going wrong. You do this and you can print any ink with any combination of variables. After that you can use these items to even further your skills and even further your ability to use your press. They are good tools and will improve your prints. Just spend some time dialing in your press and lean how to control it.

Good luck. It took me a long time before I could print a perfect white print on my press. Now I can do it every time.

My problem with the statement is Jon is telling guys to "stay away" from these what he calls "band aids"........ The above mentioned is neither of those in my book just sayin

The quote above is from an another thread. The guy in that thread was having a really hard time printing on an auto for the first time. I mean the print was so smashed into the shirt that all you saw was fibers. For this guy, in this situation he should stay away from "the advanced tools" and just work with what he has until he understands how his press works. Why complicate things for the guy when a simple white under-base is not possible. Now once he get better the "the advanced tools" can come in to get him from a 90% perfect to a 100% perfect print.

This statement was not a blanket statement to stay away from these "advanced tools". Sorry for the confusion and I hope no one thinks I am against advancements in this industry. Hell I am more of a early adopter then an old school guy. By the way just got Photoshop 3...its got layers.....so much better then Photoshop 2.  Check out the attached screen shot. Its so complicated its going to take a while to find everything.

[jsheridan]

One can simply site Winterland. Not arguing tools, toys, bells, whistles just making an observation.

without even realizing it, they and many others were the first ones to use a smoothing screen simply because the space after the flash had a screen in it.

[ol man]

One could argue that a great printer knows how to exploit what you have to work with in order to print first quality graphics. All the other stuff is icing. You should have seen what printers pulled off on old Precisions for instance. One can simply site Winterland. Not arguing tools, toys, bells, whistles just making an observation.

sooo you can rock a precision...everyday buddy

[Frog]

Another thing. Stay away from smoothing screens, rollers, double squeegees, beveled squeegees, hard flooding, s-mesh, super high tension screens and high EOM emulsion. All these are band aids for something your not doing right. Learn your press with basic stuff. Get a feel for what your press needs when something is going wrong. You do this and you can print any ink with any combination of variables. After that you can use these items to even further your skills and even further your ability to use your press. They are good tools and will improve your prints. Just spend some time dialing in your press and lean how to control it.

Good luck. It took me a long time before I could print a perfect white print on my press. Now I can do it every time.

My problem with the statement is Jon is telling guys to "stay away" from these what he calls "band aids"........ The above mentioned is neither of those in my book just sayin

The quote above is from an another thread. The guy in that thread was having a really hard time printing on an auto for the first time. I mean the print was so smashed into the shirt that all you saw was fibers. For this guy, in this situation he should stay away from "the advanced tools" and just work with what he has until he understands how his press works. Why complicate things for the guy when a simple white under-base is not possible. Now once he get better the "the advanced tools" can come in to get him from a 90% perfect to a 100% perfect print.

This statement was not a blanket statement to stay away from these "advanced tools". Sorry for the confusion and I hope no one thinks I am against advancements in this industry. Hell I am more of a early adopter then an old school guy. By the way just got Photoshop 3...its got layers.....so much better then Photoshop 2.  Check out the attached screen shot. Its so complicated its going to take a while to find everything.

Yeah Jon, I'm sorry for my part in facilitating folks taking that statement out of context.
I thought that it was established that it was split from a thread in which you were trying to help someone master their auto press.
I took it one step further to point out that folks who learned and trained on nothing but all of the new fangled gadgets may have a harder time grasping why things work the way they do, and would be especially lost troubleshooting in a new environment lacking these tools.

Oh well. the best laid plans of frogs and men oft go astray.

[Dottonedan]

Another thing. Stay away from smoothing screens, rollers, double squeegees, beveled squeegees, hard flooding, s-mesh, super high tension screens and high EOM emulsion. All these are band aids for something your not doing right. Learn your press with basic stuff. Get a feel for what your press needs when something is going wrong. You do this and you can print any ink with any combination of variables. After that you can use these items to even further your skills and even further your ability to use your press. They are good tools and will improve your prints. Just spend some time dialing in your press and lean how to control it.

Good luck. It took me a long time before I could print a perfect white print on my press. Now I can do it every time.

I pity the worker who, from the get-go, with no previous grasp of the process, learns in a shop with all of the bells, whistles, band-aids and tools, who then hits the real world realization that in new surroundings, he has to make do with "average equipment".

I resemble that.

[vwyob]

I understand the concept behind 'extra tools'. Though I have a very limited (but ever growing) knowledge of screen printing, my background is in high-end commercial lithographic print with clients such as Harrods, IBM, Nintendo, Sony, Honda..the list goes on. However, I am always humbled and receptive when approaching a new medium. Much of the fundamental concepts can be applied in general. Obviously method, process and plant will be wildly different than what I am used to.
There are 'extra tools' in litho also. They are designed to polish a print and not polish a turd. I understood completely Jon's advice. Get the fundamentals right first. I apply the same approach. We learned on machines back in the 80's with ink keys on the ducts and spanners to make adjustments to the fit between units and we learned the relationship between water/fount and ink; paper, pressure and speed etc...
As the years went by and technological improvements were made, an element of skill died. Not entirely, but things were catered for much more. The last machine I ran was a 5/5 perfector 1510 x 2050mm sheet size and I seldom left the  centre console at the delivery. We ran at around 16,000 sheets an hr and could do things that we could never have achieved back in the 80's. BUT..... When things went wrong? The old school guys with the fundamental understanding would step up and apply the foundation of knowledge learned back in the day. A grounded knowledge in any medium is essential.
This is what I am trying to achieve here. The guys here have been screen printing 20 years and more in some cases. When I joined I was asked to learn the process and see if improvements could be made. Within the first week I could see that things could be improved and that 20 years plus experience counted for squat. I lurked here for ages, reading and watching, amongst other forums. I phoned around other printers and spoke to suppliers and engineers because I realised that the guys here had not been taught or shown the fundamentals. Yes they produce prints. Yes people pay money, and yes people return over and again for more work...but thats not the point is it?
The most difficult part is telling someone that has been doing something for so long that they are not doing it correctly. The thing I found amazing was at how 'forgiving' a process screen printing can be. You can be off the mark and still produce sellable units. Litho is much less forgiving. I guess this is how these guys have slipped through the mesh (pardon the pun). Shortcutting and quick fixes to get the job done. Feeding from 'add-ons' and 'extra tools' instead of learning from the ground up. But they never thought to ask or seek those of a higher knowledge. But I do. I come to you with questions and the desire to learn from the ground up. I want the staff to learn with me, to be receptive. I want excellence through knowledge and to use the purchasable aids, be them mechanical or software, to refine a good print and not mask a bad one.
I understood Jon. I understand the concern of others also. We, as a company, will go back to walking again until we can walk properly. When I have confidence that they are grasping the basics? Then we will try to run once more.

[tonypep]

Good post vywob. Foundations and fundementals are critical. Just as process improvement through better technology. In this ever polarizing world we sometimes forget balance and leverage.

[vwyob]

Cheers buddy. The bit I am struggling with is getting them to be passionate about improving. Its Saturday and Mr 20 years is supposed to be here with me to re-train. Oddly.....he hasn't shown up.   

[Underbase37]

20 years of "experience" should tell him that a no call no show, even on a Saturday....means he just quit. " experience" with out a little perspective to see the changes needed to be a better printer, is useless experience.

Murphy37

[vwyob]

Buddy i am so heart wrenchingly disappointed its bothering me a lot.

[Underbase37]

Man, that does suck....improving on someone's process has to be their decision. You can only keep trying to improve the process from your end. I hope things turn out better for you.

Murphy37

[jsheridan]

Buddy i am so heart wrenchingly disappointed its bothering me a lot.

Been there brother and you can't do that to yourself.

We are in control of how we react to a situation and you're choosing to let it get to you.

This is business so treat it as such. Keep the personal feelings on the matter in check and handle this guy with ferocity.

Do not allow him to bend your frame, hold your ground and hand him walking papers.

[ol man]

Buddy i am so heart wrenchingly disappointed its bothering me a lot.

Been there brother and you can't do that to yourself.

We are in control of how we react to a situation and you're choosing to let it get to you.

This is business so treat it as such. Keep the personal feelings on the matter in check and handle this guy with ferocity.

Do not allow him to bend your frame, hold your ground and hand him walking papers.

Amen

[mk162]

we had the same thing here years ago, when this employee was finally terminated it bothered me for a long time.  I considered him a co-worker and a friend...but verbal abuse isn't something we tolerate, and couple that with a no-call, no-show and you're done.