Author Topic: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?  (Read 37002 times)

Offline Screened Gear

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« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 07:53:09 PM by Jon »


Offline Screened Gear

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2014, 07:58:17 PM »
1964.

Here is some video threads on some of the features of the presses. It will help if you can see them in person.

These are the AUTO WARS so far

AUTO WARS 1 - Micro Registration
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html

AUTO WARS 2 - Screen Holders
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2868.0.html

AUTO WARS 3 - Squeegees & Flood Bars
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2914.0.html

AUTO WARS 4 - Pallets
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 08:02:08 PM by Jon »

Offline Ryan

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2014, 09:25:06 PM »
You should be looking at the ECO, not the YOU. That is going to be more in line with the other 2 presses you are considering. That's my opinion, but seems like the G3 would make the most sense in you situation unless its a crap load more expensive than the other 2

Offline jsheridan

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2014, 09:32:28 PM »


In context of mhm vs m&r vs sroque, you'd do best to speak with one who has exposure to all 3 models you're considering. If I'm not mistaken, jsheridan has had experience with m&r and mhm - I'd heed advice from that person before someone who only knows one brand. Having said that, I don't think you'll go wrong with any of those brands, so that should provide some comfort that you won't make a mistake in your purchase.



20+ years spinning the blue wheels and other assorted brands

2 Years on MHM

I have a  friend who owns the only S-roque in diego.

Each brand does something a little different, what they all do the same is print t-shirts at a ridiculous rate.

You're standing at the end of the dryer, what do you want to see coming down the belt and how much are you willing to spend to get what you want.

How would you then base your decision.

You already have a DB, so you can run a button screen in there as it has side holders, but the boys at blue will make sure that never happens, just by posting this you opened the door, and once the vampire is invited in.. well you know.

Enjoy your new gauntlet, just be sure to sweeten the deal and have them throw in two quarts flashes, you'll need them for those beautiful 10 color simm jobs on black shirts.
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Offline 1964GN

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2014, 08:51:38 AM »
Thanks to those that have provided real feedback.

The arguments for staying with M&R are valid but we don't want to pigeonhole ourselves to one brand if the other options provide the addition advanced features we are looking for. So far, if we don't go with M$R, the difference in price would buy a hell of a lot of additional accessories. We have no problem investing in another brand if need be. They are still in the running but slowly slipping backwards the more we look at the other options.

What attracts us to the other brands are the ease/accuracy of set up/registration, no unlock micos, ease of access to screens and squeegees (lifting heads etc.), off contacts per head, ease of pallet change, among other things.

Thanks again for all of your constructive input so far, even the sarcastic comments are fun to read :-)

Offline dirkdiggler

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2014, 09:03:08 AM »
Pretty sure the G3 will have off contact per head, like the CH3.
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Offline Printficient

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2014, 09:25:05 AM »
Time Savings MHM vs. M&R and Anatol Print Procedures

Steps needed to run a print
1)   Registration
2)   Squeegee and Floodbar Installation
3)   Print Stroke Adjustment
4)   Print Parameters
5)   Control Panel Operation
6)   Print Parameter Documentation
7)   Platen Changeover
8)   Print Breakdown


Registration:
1)   Pre Press
2)   On Press

Pre Press:
1)   MHM Film Positioning Unit (FPU)
2)   M&R Tri Lock
3)   Pin Registration System

On Press:
1)   Inserting Screens on Press
2)   Registering Screens
A. MHM
B. M&R
   C. Anatol

Squeegee and Floodbar Installation
1)   MHM
2)   M&R
3)   Anatol

Print Stroke Adjustment
1)   MHM
2)   M&R
3)   Anatol

Print Parameters
1)   MHM
2)   M&R
3)   Anatol




Machine Operation
1)   MHM
2)   M&R
3)   Anatol

Print Parameter Documentation
1)   MHM
2)   M&R
3)   Anatol

Platen Changeover
1)   MHM
2)   M&R
3)   Anatol

Print Breakdown
1)   MHM
2)   M&R
3)   Anatol



























Registration Pre Press
FPU vs. Tri Lock and Pin Registration

        The main differences between the MHM FPU and the other two are the lack of carrier sheets and putting the film on the screen and laying the screen on the film.
        The cost savings are twofold.  There is no need to buy carrier sheets or to have to buy a bigger exposure unit to hold the Registration frames which in turn hold the screens in the exposure unit.  This means we can use normal folders to catalog our art as we have no carrier sheets.  Also, we never run out of carrier sheets as we do not use them.  The added dimensions of the other systems units that must be on your glass of your exposure unit may necessitate a bigger unit than you already have.
        The benefit of pre registration is to decrease the registration part of set up times.
With this said, the MHM FPU is far superior to the others in 4 ways.  They are: 1. No carrier sheets.  2. Better registration because we place each piece of film directly ON the screen and are thus insured of a tighter registration.  3. We can shoot as many screens at once that our exposure unit will hold.  4.  Our FPU holds the screen the EXCACT same way our presses hold the screen.   

Registration on Press
FPU vs. Tri Lock and Pin Registration
This is where the FPU will save you money as there are only 4 steps used on press as opposed to 15 – 18 steps used on press by our competitors.
MHM FPU steps are:
1.   Place screens in press
2.   Put squeegees, floodbars, and inks in screens
3.   Run strike off and micro IF necessary
4.   Begin run
M&R Tri Lock steps are:
1.   Place screens in heads
2.   Remove a platen from press
3.   Put Tri-Lock platen on press
4.   Free wheel or index Tri-Lock platen to first screen
5.   Lock table
6.   Raise table
7.   Pull screen against the stops on Tri-Lock
8.   Lock screen
9.   Lower table
10.   Free wheel or index Tri-Lock platen to next screen
11.   Repeat steps 5-10 for all remaining screens
12.   Remove Tri-Lock platen
13.   Replace platen removed in step 2
14.   Add squeegees, floodbars and inks
15.   Print sample shirt
16.   Micro registration if necessary
17.   Begin run
Anatol with Pin Registration steps are:
1.   Place screens in heads
2.   Engage Pin Registration bars by swinging them out and locking them into position on the platen they are installed on
3.   Free wheel or index platen to first screen
4.   Lock table
5.   Raise table
6.   Pull screen to pins and hold
7.   Lock screen
8.   Lower table
9.   Free wheel or index registration platen to next screen
10.   Repeat steps 4 – 9
11.   Add squeegees, floodbars and inks
12.   Return Pin Registration bars to their stowed position
13.   Print sample shirt
14.   Micro registration if necessary
15.   Begin run
The total time savings on an average MHM 6 color setup is 20 minutes.  At 10 shirts a minute production that would mean that 200 shirts would be printed before the 1st shirt is even loaded on the M&R or the Anatol.  This means that 20 minutes of labor is now being used to make money instead of cost money.

























Squeegee and Floodbar Installation

The main difference in this step is that the M&R uses Optional Air Locks and Anatol uses a Quick Snap system.

MHM uses a Pull Pin system which ensures a quicker install time than an M&R without the Optional Air Locks and a less complicated method than M&R with the Optional Air Locks.

MHM’s system is also easier than the Anatol Quick Snap system as it does not require holding the squeegee or floodbar at an angle and then snapping them in.

The average time savings on a 6 color job is approximately 6 minutes; which equates to 60 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.


Print stroke Adjustment

The MHM stroke adjustment simply requires the user to slide a bar to the desired length without having to release locking mechanisms for on our competitor’s presses. 

The average time savings on a 6 color job is 3 minutes; which equates to 30 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.


Print Parameters

Squeegee and Floodbar angle adjustment.

M&R and Anatol require you to loosen a locking mechanism on both sides of the squeegee and floodbar, adjust the angle and then relock the mechanisms.

The MHM E Type requires you to loosen a locking mechanism on 1 side only, set the angle and retighten the mechanism.

The MHM S Type and 4000 simply requires you to move a lever to the desired angles with no unlocking or locking a mechanism.

The average time savings on a 6 color job is 4-6 minutes; which equates to 40 - 60 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.
   
Squeegee and Floodbar pressure adjustment.

There is no real initial time savings on initial set ups on this feature but there is a time savings on reset ups as explained in the Documentation section.

Machine Operation
The main differences between MHM and M&R and Anatol with respect to operation of the press are the substantial fewer steps needed to do the things you do on most prints.

These include sample prints, operations that require you to be at the control panel, steps to clean lint or tape pin holes, and steps to change flash times during the run.

To print a sample shirt on a M&R requires the press to be set in sample mode by engaging a switch, loading a shirt, and flipping a switch to print start and the print finish once the shirt indexes.

To print a sample shirt on the Anatol in the quickest manner you have to load a shirt, index the shirt to the last empty print station before a color, tell the machine a shirt is there by activating the shirt indicator, press start, and turn off shirts as their indicators light up on the control panel and finally press stop once the sample shirt is finished.

To print a sample shirt on the MHM simply indicate the number of samples you want and press Sample on the control panel.

The average time savings on a 6 color job is 1 – 3 minutes; which equates to 10 - 30 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.

Every operation of the machine, index, carriage forward and back, chopper up and down, table up and down, clean position, test print, or flash activation can be done at the end of each head or at the control panel (without having to go to sub menus) on the MHM.

The average time savings on a 6 color job is 5 – 10 minutes; which equates to 50 - 100 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.

To stop the press and wipe lint or tape pinholes on the M&R or the Anatol requires you to press stop and then hold down a reset button on the M&R while physically spinning the table out of the way.  This is on all M&R’s air drive or servo.  On the Anatol you press stop and then half index on the servo drives or release the drive pin and spin the table by hand.  On both you have to re align the table and re engage the table lock which sometimes can be tough to do.

To do the same on a MHM simply press “clean position” on the control panel and the machine will finish the current print stroke and half index automatically.  When finished simply press “clean position” again and the machine will half index back and automatically begin production.

The average time savings on a 500 piece fleece job is 10 minutes; which equates to 100 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.



The procedures to adjust the flash dwell times on a M&R or an Anatol require you to scroll through enough sub menus that most operators stop the press to do this.

On the MHM presses you simply press the Dryer times button and adjust from there.

The average time savings on a 500 piece dark job is 5 – 10 minutes; which equates to 50 - 100 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.


Print Documentation

All parameters of a print can be documented on any MHM.  This greatly reduces the set up times on reprinting a job with exacting repeatability.

The average time savings on a 6 color job is 15 - 20 minutes; which equates to 150 - 200 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.

Platen Changes

In order to change your platens on a M&R you have to reach under the platen and unlock 4 little bars by spinning them a certain distance, pull the platen off, line up the new platen, slide it on and then relock the bars.  You then manually spin the table to the next platen and repeat.  The average time to change out 12 platens is 10 – 15 minutes

In order to do this on an Anatol with the quick change platens you release from under the platen a lever, pull the platen off, line up the new platen, slide the platen on and re engage the lever under the platen.  You then manually spin the table to the next platen and repeat.  The average time to change out 12 platens is 7 – 10 minutes.

In order to change your platens on a MHM you simply press platen change on the control panel and lift the platen off.  You then put the new platen on the arm and press index and unlock.  The machine automatically indexes the next platen over and unlocks it.  Simply repeat the above step until all platens are done, The average time to change out 12 platens is 45 to 90 seconds.

The average time savings is 6 – 14 minutes; which equates to 60 - 140 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.


Print Breakdown

To break down a print on a M&R or Anatol requires flipping switches to release the squeegees, floodbars, and screens.  Lifting the end of the head out of the way on a M&R or flipping the side holder out of the way on an Anatol is required if you want to change the screen only.

To break down a MHM S Type or 4000 simply unlock the screen and remove.  Pulling the pins holding the squeegee and floodbars releases the  You simply press the release on the end of the head and lift the arm holding the squeegee and floodbar out of the way to change just the screen.

The average time savings on switching a 6 color job for another 6 color job is 10 – 30 minutes; which equates to 100 - 300 additional shirts produced at 10 shirts a minute.

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Offline 1964GN

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2014, 09:37:36 AM »
Thanks for that info but Anatol is not in the running, S-Roque is for a variety of reasons. While M&R is still in the running it's quickly boiling down to MHM and the S-Roque.

Have you done an analysis comparing the features of these two brands?

Offline Shanarchy

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2014, 09:43:48 AM »
Sonny, on the MHM regi system, does the micros have to be zeroed for the screens to register correctly?

I'm interested in seeing the MHM to S Roque comparisons.


Offline Printficient

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2014, 11:16:14 AM »
Sonny, on the MHM regi system, does the micros have to be zeroed for the screens to register correctly?

I'm interested in seeing the MHM to S Roque comparisons.

If minor movement is needed to dial in a print then yes would need to be re zeroed.  With a DTS system this step would be virtually non existent.  I will need to see the newer S Roque to do a comparison as it has been a while since I have seen one. 
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Offline blue moon

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2014, 11:18:47 AM »
I like the S-Roque, but my perception is that they are VW compared to the MHM which is BMW. If you are a car guy, you'll get what I am talking about. M&R is like a Ford.

They all have their time and place and work better with some business models than the others. From what I have seen, everybody I can think of that has run multiple presses prefers the MHM to the other ones. I will also add to this that most of the other presses were not the newest models and some very significant features have been added in past few years. All said and done though, MHM still seems to be the press to beat.

pierre
Yes, we've won our share of awards, and yes, I've tested stuff and read the scientific papers, but ultimately take everything I say with more than just a grain of salt! So if you are looking for trouble, just do as I say or even better, do something I said years ago!

Offline 1964GN

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2014, 11:40:40 AM »
I like the S-Roque, but my perception is that they are VW compared to the MHM which is BMW. If you are a car guy, you'll get what I am talking about. M&R is like a Ford.

They all have their time and place and work better with some business models than the others. From what I have seen, everybody I can think of that has run multiple presses prefers the MHM to the other ones. I will also add to this that most of the other presses were not the newest models and some very significant features have been added in past few years. All said and done though, MHM still seems to be the press to beat.

pierre

Thank you for your input. I would say you have summed up our thinking pretty well.

For those that have an MHM, do you find the fixed flash location an issue at all? Our current second flash is used on the manual and the DB and we can roll it into any head we want... not that we move it around very often AND It's not even remotely close to a deal killer... Just wondering.

Offline blue moon

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2014, 11:56:06 AM »
I like the S-Roque, but my perception is that they are VW compared to the MHM which is BMW. If you are a car guy, you'll get what I am talking about. M&R is like a Ford.

They all have their time and place and work better with some business models than the others. From what I have seen, everybody I can think of that has run multiple presses prefers the MHM to the other ones. I will also add to this that most of the other presses were not the newest models and some very significant features have been added in past few years. All said and done though, MHM still seems to be the press to beat.

pierre

Thank you for your input. I would say you have summed up our thinking pretty well.

For those that have an MHM, do you find the fixed flash location an issue at all? Our current second flash is used on the manual and the DB and we can roll it into any head we want... not that we move it around very often AND It's not even remotely close to a deal killer... Just wondering.

It is not in a fixed position, just does not have a stand. We move ours about once a week. Should not really be a concern. I am pretty sure that you can get MSI flashes for it with a stand.

Pierre
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Offline Shanarchy

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2014, 12:13:08 PM »
I like the S-Roque, but my perception is that they are VW compared to the MHM which is BMW. If you are a car guy, you'll get what I am talking about.
pierre

That's kind of the impression I had. I really like the S Roques, but it has a very MHM feel about it.

Offline dirkdiggler

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Re: MHM, S-Roque or M&R?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2014, 12:13:28 PM »
Some nice points you make there Sonny, unfortunately they are not ALL true!  I think this comes from your lack of knowledge of the newest presses on the market.  You know I like you so I am not calling you liar, just lack of knowledge.  One should probably test drive the NEWEST technology from M&R and MHM for themselves.  Also, you cant compare ANY press to the GT3, because you have not seen it and you have no idea what it offers.  I do have a little insight to it, but you should see it for yourself before you make comparisons.  Both great choices, just be well educated before you make a decision.  If you are going to spend that kind of money you owe it to yourself to visit SGIA Vegas, GT3 will debut there.  I commend Sonny for the lengthy post with the comparisons, I know that took a lot of time.  I personally think you can get good prints from most ANY new machine if you have skillz!  Even with Sonnys wooden frames, HA!
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