Need ideas how to fix this...

[KevWilso]

If he activated the other colors with the same activator and they worked fine, i doubt it was the activator.
I was told activator stays good for two years from the place that i buy it.

If you overload a base with pigment it can cause crocking and flake off when you scrape at it because it doesn't have enough binder to hold it.  I would be curious to see what would happen if you cut the the orange 50/50 with a base and see if it holds. 

But for now i guess it is a waiting game.   Sorry man.

[Screened Gear]

Alex,  I feel for you. Not knowing what happened or how to fix it is frustrating. Hang in there

[Gilligan]

I think the white had flaked off as well... Right Alex?

[KevWilso]

is the orange printed over the white?

No, straight activated D-Flo Orange

From what i understood the orange was printed direct without white under it, and the white ink came out fine.  However this was a really long thread and i may have missed something.

[sqslabs]

I was told activator stays good for two years from the place that i buy it.

I've definitely had discharge agent lose potency long before two years, but that doesn't take into consideration how long my supplier had it on their shelf before shipping it out.  And I've only had this happen once, but we also go through it pretty fast under normal circumstances.

I wonder if the way the agent is stored may play a role in it as well.  Would leaving the lid off a bucket of agent cause it to deteriorate faster?  We usually keep ours sealed tight, but maybe I'll leave a bit uncovered for a couple weeks to see if it makes any difference.  Maybe best to save that for another thread though, as not to derail this one.

[KevWilso]

Shelf life "Minimum 6 months if stored in air tight container in a cool place"

I stand corrected on the two years.  I just went and looked it up.

[TCT]

Let's see if I can cover all these-

Activator we buy in 1 gal. The activator was only in our shop 2 months max. We leave the lid on. Measure out what we need and close it back up. Sits on a shelf out of sunlight.

The orange was just straight D-Flo orange with 5% activator, nothing under it. The white was Rutland and we didn't see any issue with the white. If CCI did, I'll grab a couple more shirts, hell we have over 700 of them and wash them a few more times.

The temp gun from the dryer read 366, I believe I have a pic of that, I'll look and can post.

Thanks for all the support guys! So if it turns out I just made a stupid mistake along the line somewhere, anyone still want to be friends?

[kingscreen]

Alex, have you been able to repeat this issue on the same garments and on newly ordered stock? My guess would be a mill dye issue. We had something similar happen running ITC fleece about a year ago. Everything discharged beautifully except the Larges. Mill later confirmed an over-dye rendering the stock undischargable.

[Homer]

I have a gut feeling it was on the garment side more than the ink side....but you DID say you had another customer call and say the orange washed off too, right?....

start at the top and start to rule things out:

Dryer temp? was it REALLY up to temp? maybe a false reading? the white did wash off too and we are talking about crossing brands of ink, close to same results of both...coincidence?

bad garments? if another custy had this happen with the same orange, but different shirt color, the common factor here is the ink ( like you already are guessing)


Acitvator?....naahhh, couldn't be


poor printing? .....naaah, this ain't your first rodeo.


what are we missing here....you used S mesh so saturation and all the techy BS has to be right...right?


I would run samples today but I want to run them down the dryer and I'm not printing today...nooo sir....

I'm just curious to know as much as you in case this ever happens to me, I think we all could benefit from this bad experience..

[sqslabs]

Test Results

Inks Tested: CCI D-Flo Orange, CCI D-Flo Pink - Both supplied by TCT
Agent: 5% - All measurements made to within 0.01g
Heat: 75 seconds at 340 degrees through an M&R Heatwave Dryer
Screen: 150S (Manual Double Stroke)
Shirts tested: Next Level 3600 (Black), American Apparel 2001 (Black), Hanes 5170 (Heather Charcoal)

Results: All shirts discharged well, and retained color to an acceptable level following one wash/dry cycle. 

Notes: While the ink was the same, none of the fabric used matched the make/model as TCT's original print.  I had the 5170 on hand, which is the same color and blend, and was used to recreate the trial as closely as the original as possible.

On a side note, I dig the ink and will be using it in my shop.

[Printficient]

Test Results

Inks Tested: CCI D-Flo Orange, CCI D-Flo Pink - Both supplied by TCT
Agent: 5% - All measurements made to within 0.001g
Heat: 75 seconds at 340 degrees through an M&R Heatwave Dryer
Screen: 150S (Manual Double Stroke)
Shirts tested: Next Level 3600 (Black), American Apparel 2001 (Black), Hanes 5170 (Heather Charcoal)

Results: All shirts discharged well, and retained color to an acceptable level following one wash/dry cycle. 

Notes: While the ink was the same, none of the fabric used matched the make/model as TCT's original print.  I had the 5170 on hand, which is the same color and blend, and was used to recreate the trial as closely as the original as possible.

On a side note, I dig the ink and will be using it in my shop.

Couple of questions.
1.  Just 1 wash?
2.  Color acceptable?
What does that mean?

Whenever I have washed tested shirts it was always a minimum of 5 cycles through the washer and dryer.  As to color level acceptable, if it faded 1 iota that was not acceptable.  I have shirts from my days at Starter that the print outlasted the shirt.  I would wonder sometimes if the "improvements" we see in all the supplies that come with this industry are really that, improvements.  Not bashing you here, just wondering what I am missing on the testing parameters of the "new" and improved  WB/DC inks.   

[TCT]

Well as everyone can assume I needed to change my pants when Brett(sqslabs) let me know about his results. Unless Homer pulls out something crazy looks like it is incompetence on my side. Homer please if you have good results please post. I don't want to tarnish CCI's brand.

CCI - this is mainly for you... Do you have any idea what may be the issue I am having?! I think it will be SUPER beneficial for numerous customers in the future if we are able to work out a possible cause.

So what are we left with?
- Garments didn't cure all the way? If this is the issue, can I run the shirts through the dryer again EXTREMELY slow? Or is that a no go?
- Dyes in the garment? But CCI, didn't you run your tests on a piece of the garment I sent?
-What else?

[Screened Gear]

So it has to have something to do with undercure, penitration or over saturation (part of the undercure).

Here is my guessing since: the inks checked out fine and the fabric is not an issue since this happened on 3 orders of different garments.

Were you in a hurry and maybe ran the dryer faster then normal?

Was the run longer then your normal DC run?

Was is a rainy day or a high humidity day?

Its been hot, did you add fans or anything like that to your dryer area to keep the guys at the end of the dryer cool?

Could you have printed this ink thicker or oversaturated the garment then your normal DC print? That would cause this to happen since it would take much longer to evaporate and cure that print. Could have been done with not a hard enough print, too much angle, too soft a squeegee? Have you tried to run the same ink in a different head? Maybe a air cylinder malfunctioned?

That is all I got as possible options.

[sqslabs]

Couple of questions.
1.  Just 1 wash?
2.  Color acceptable?
What does that mean?

Whenever I have washed tested shirts it was always a minimum of 5 cycles through the washer and dryer.  As to color level acceptable, if it faded 1 iota that was not acceptable.  I have shirts from my days at Starter that the print outlasted the shirt.  I would wonder sometimes if the "improvements" we see in all the supplies that come with this industry are really that, improvements.  Not bashing you here, just wondering what I am missing on the testing parameters of the "new" and improved  WB/DC inks.   

My goal wasn't to test D-Flo inks for wash fastness over time.  It was to recreate the specific circumstances of Alex's print as closely as possible and record the results.  His shirts were only washed once, so there was no need to wash the one I did five times.  In regards to the color, I've yet to meet a discharge ink that didn't show some sort of color variation after wash on a ringspun or 50/50 shirt.  I posted a bit more about that recently in another thread which you can find at the following link if you'd like to check out more of my thoughts on that.  http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,12293.msg116491

There are certain variables that come into play with discharge inks that are just part of what they are, and should be used accordingly. The inks used in this test seem to be so loaded with pigment that the prints will almost always look more vibrant out of the dryer than they will after the top layer of ink is removed during its initial wash cycle.  The level of that will depend on the ink color and fabric it is printed on.  I consider that to be acceptable with discharge inks, hence my using of the term.  When it isn't acceptable, I use plastisol.

[TCT]

Our dryer hasn't changed speed in probably over a year. No fans to effect the dryer(today was our first day over 90  ) Humidity could be a issue I suppose, we have had quite a bit of rain this year but we usually have the doors closed.

If humidity or oversaturation is the issue, is it possible to put these bad boys through the dryer again?

I can't express how much I truly appreciate everyone's input and help with this. It is just such a odd issue! I am going to run another temp strip through the dryer just in case or temp gun is off....

CCI- is the pigment load on the D-Flo orange particularly heavy by chance?