Pre-reg!

[ZooCity]

Homer's post got me all hot and bothered about making a pre-reg system again.  I figured I'd start a fresh thread so as not to steal his thunder on his post.  I know Alan and others are working on this sort of thing too and we're probably all too busy right now to actually build the damn things so let's hear everyone's best ideas and viciously criticize and tear them apart until we find a really solid one or some good elements at least.  How's that sound?

Here's my running concept, I think this may have been loosely mentioned before somewhere.  It's basically combining the Pin-Lock and Tri-Lock system and eliminating reg-marks all together as well as nixing a bunch of taping:

We have screens from 25"x30" up to really damn big so I'm putting a big 'ol vac frame in at our new space.  This means no crap on the glass for any pre-reg.  The textile and flatstock screens need to share the expo unit.  We do have a smaller unit that I built that could have permanent bump stops or whatever but that's more floor space eaten up.

Use a hole punch from one of our sister trades, maybe like this:

http://www.takachpress.com/servlet/the-291/Punch-Registration-System-6-dsh-Hole/Detail

{Or maybe cheaper.  Maybe you're a total cheap-ass and use a three hole punch from the office supply store.  And buy a second one to dismantle and use holes from.}

I'm not sure which would be superior but you could either use sheets only and punch those sheets ahead of time.  Or you could print off a roll feed first and them stack the films together and punch them all at once.  This is the critical point here- if the holes don't get punched accurately this whole concept won't work too well.  I'm leaning toward sheets only and pre-punch but will r&d it both ways to see.  Using roll would save film but I'm concerned it will curl to0 much to get an accurate punch after printing. 

I have a template illy file that all art gets placed in before output.  There's a set of guides you can turn on or off showing different platen print areas at true size as well as placements for left crest, etc.  Well, you can see where this is going- Place the art before it goes to rip where you want it to land on-press for that particular platen, print on those punched sheets and now you have each color aligned as perfectly as an inkjet will allow onto films that are their own carrier sheets with no reg marks, with punch holes ready to go. 

From here you could either:

• make a jig that's a reverse/flip of the thee point jig used on press allowing you to load the the screen in print side up for film placement, like the MHM system does.  Except no alignment is needed here, simply fit the sheet on the reg pins, tape and carefully pull it off the pins and its off to expose a (presumably) perfectly registered screen with no bump stops, etc. needed on the glass
• Do something like Homer's setup and the tri-loc does and put the film on the pins on the expo glass where you have the bump stops

Downsides: 

• Wastes film
• Takes the added step of punching the film.
• Might not actually work.
  

Upsides:
 

• No reg marks!  If it works this would be huge.  You're saving all that blocking out and eliminating the risk of any ink getting through the blockout.
• No lining up a film or screen by eye. Saving even more time and eliminates another step where there's room for error.
• Very little or no tape needed.  You still need to tape in scenario 1 above but not at all in scenario 2.
• No carrier sheets, the films are the carriers.
• Allows you to expose screens as fast as the unit will allow.

   

I'm pretty sold on it, in my head at least.  And if it doesn't perfectly reg screens that's fine by me.  It's still saving a crap-ton of time.    But, I bet it can reg things pretty close. 

[jsheridan]

I've used the high placed 3-wide-1 way-low reg marks for the last 10 yrs, the idea is to get the regies out of the squeegee drop area, this way, even if you 'forget' to tape or blockout the back of the screen, a reg mark will never print on the shirt. Just as jay has done with the reg marks on the glass, you can't miss the mark as long as it's lined up... that's it. Line it up right, dial in your reg frame and you'll never touch a micro again.

You use a few more inches of film in the process but who cares, the time saved in set up pays for any extra film you may have used. The mind set knowing that a reg mark will never again 'accidentally' print on a shirt and any new guy who runs your press can set it just as easy and quick as the last. This is golden if you do discharge.. you can't blow out a discharge reg mark on 45 shirts.

[inkman996]

I love that idea John placing the reggies off the print area. If your reg system is tight even a tiny tweak can be done looking at the art instead of the reg marks.

[jason-23]

whats wrong with carrier sheets? on my manuel i use vastex vrs system and freaking love it.

[mk162]

It's and added and unnecessary product.  M&R should have been able to design a product that doesn't need carrier sheets.  Homer's system once perfected, should be faster and cheaper than the tri-lock.

I would have personally put pre-reg on a light table off the expo unit to save some time, but that's me.

[jsheridan]

whats wrong with carrier sheets? on my manuel i use vastex vrs system and freaking love it.

It's an added step and a step that something can go wrong as you have to tape the positive to the carrier sheet.

With the inverted reg marks on the glass, the reg marks on your film line butt-to-butt with the ones on the glass.

Print film, place on glass (use tack cloth from paint dept in home depot/lowes on glass, removes lint and when you add pressure, will help the film stick to glass) burn and you're done.

No film to peel from the carrier later.. the carriers also have a life before the pre-punched holes start to loosen and you need to buy more carriers. I love the tr-loc but the initial high cost and then it uses consumables turns many ppl off. It is however the best option for a full blown factory who can absorb those costs a little easier than you or i.

[alan802]

I love this subject.  I am going to go out and take some pics of what I have currently and what I'm thinking of doing.  My artist and I have thought about doing the hole punch idea.  Your thinking of lining up the job on an FPU of sorts, then punching them out right?  I just really wonder if there will be any sliding or moving of the film when the punch is penetrating all of the film, or if there is a way to do it separate and still not lose registration.  I like the hole punch but I'm not ready to go down that road yet and I have some other areas I'd like to explore before getting to it because I think there are better/easier ways. 

Right now, I really like the system John52 has in his shop.  I am going to go out and take a pic of what my FPU looks like, and then a pic of what I want it to look like in the MHM FPU.  But the only downside to the MHM FPU is I'm not using an MHM machine and the pallet jig on press will not be exactly like the FPU.

I really want to get my aluminum piece cut or someone to let me buy their Tri-loc pallet jig.  Then I'd have one of the best DIY regi systems around.  Ok, I'm going to take some pics.

[ebscreen]

I think the hardest part of the whole system is replicating the film positioning part on press.
MHM's do this with pins on the screen that lock into the same place on every head. If I didn't
have an MHM I'd be looking for a way to replicate that. Seems much easier than the pallet jig
setup. Just my $0.02.

[mk162]

eb, you are totally right.  MHM's system makes WAY more sense.  Take a look at offset presses, the plates lock into the same position, registration is done OFF the press.

[alan802]

I have also looked at retrofitting bump stops on each printhead.  It's the closest thing we non mhm users could do to replicate that system.  I don't necessarily like putting the pallet jig on and off when needed but it's really not an ass whip like you'd think.  Especially when considering the time savings you get by using a reg system.  Uploading pics to photobucket now and will post them after we run a quick job.

[ebscreen]

What about using the frame air locks or something like that and modifying your screens? Are they
stable enough?

[mk162]

You could put grommets on the screens that line up with the locks.  I've tried to think of a way to do this and make it work.  I am just not sure if side to side torquing would mess those locks up.  Since they can slide on the screens now, there isn't much risk of that.

[Homer]

I haven't read all the posts yet -but Zoo -the problem you will run into is the printer itself printing the films in registration. I know my 1400 does not put the design in the same exact spot on every piece of film -it's close but not close enough. Maybe your printer will? have you tried it yet?

[Homer]

I have also thought about drilling a 1/8" hole in two left side corners of my frames, put a metal insert in there and glue it shut . It's not a pin, but an opening for a pin that could be attached to the platen or not necessarily on the platen, but somewhere else on the press that is stationary.

with all the time thinking about this damn system, we all could have bought a tri loc haha

[mk162]

I don't think there is a printer on the market that can put it in the same spot.  They are not designed to.  They get close, close enough for trimming and binding and such, but the takeup system is so different than an offset press where you might be running that 1 sheet through 3 more times.