TSB Un-Offical Equipment Dog Pile Thread

[spotcolorsupply]

Come one come all...

Manufacturers, Distributors, and End Users are Welcome...

All makes models and brands are welcome to be discussed...

I didn't want to de-rail 3Deep's thread anymore, but I did want to respond to DannyGruninger

Not to derail the thread any further but the first auto that I purchased was from workhorse(I would have been buying blue from the start had I actually known about the industry but thats another topic) had to be returned. When I started my shop, I was coming from the machining industry running a 5 axis cnc machine daily and the lack of quality machine work on the tuf blew me away...... The face plate that hits the stop blocks when the table raises up was not even machined flat, so the press would never have each pallet with the same off contact. Not saying they build all their machines this way but first hand right here I had to return the press I purchased because the machining on it was really crappy....... Just saying

The presses that I am referring to are "post" Bergman Buy out of Tuff Products... The problem you are referring to has been fixed, and the folks at Workhorse (Bergman) were kind enough to even create a fix for the old presses... I know because I have installed the fix myself, and it worked like a champ.

I've heard of and witnessed some of the issues that the old Tuff presses had, but I find it hard to believe that M&R hasn't had their fair share of problems, especially in their earlier years??

Now that Bergman has the wheel, and since I've sold their machines (Around 7 years now on and off), I am not aware of any design flaws in their machines...

We can discuss performance and preference all day long, but both companies have solid designs...

[spotcolorsupply]

In all of my years selling workhorse products here at Spot Color Supply, and at the company I use to work for, I have Never had a customer want to return a machine that I sold them.

Which stands to reason, why don't other manufactures of autos if they are trying to be competitive and they aren't worried about people returning them what do they have to lose?  M&R must think they have nothing to lose.

The only person with something to lose in this situation would be an end user... And even with that so called 100% money back guarantee, said end user is out 4-6K... I personally as a distributor wouldn't be all that interested in running around bragging about a 100% money back guarantee that in the fine print cost 4-6K... We are not talking about your buddy RRRRRWWWWWBBBBB here, these are both reputable companies with excellent track records.

[Printficient]

I have had the pleasure to run just about every press that you can find in the USA.  From Multi printers to Ovals to all M&R up to the sportsman, all MHM, all Lawson, all TUF as well as some progressives.  I have heard horror stories on all of these and experienced a few myself.
My issue here is that for someone who doesn't have to speak because he does have an army of happy users to battle for him to suggest that if you do not offer a money back guarantee then you are not a player and should just fade away is down right stupid.
Competition breeds improvements, lowers costs and improves the users work life as well.

BTW a 45 day money back warranty really isn't saying much.  ALL new presses should work as advertised for a minimum of 1 year.  I realize that there will always be the "lemon" that shows up every once in a while and I commend anyone who warrantees that.  I know for a fact that an Anatol customer had a press replaced at "NO" charge when it would not go together properly.  How?  Because I had to go crate the old press and install the new press when I was employed at Anatol.  All on Anatol's dime.  I believe any manufacturer would do the same.

As most know I am an MHM guy.  It doesn't mean I don't like M&R presses, actually I do.  I can print a phenomenal shirt on either and all the others I have mentioned.

I have not once said anything bad about a M&R press.  I have expressed regret at the way M&R would compete in the field when the new guy is out there.  Let your equipment do the talking and if its voice is not loud enough then see where you can improve it so the industry can improve.  Enough pissing contests.

As the old joke goes there are two men peeing off a bridge when one man says "Boy that water is cold" and the other guy says "yeah it's deep too."

To quote Rodney King "Why can't we all just get along?"

[spotcolorsupply]

Well Said Sonny!!!

[dirkdiggler]

Blue, Red, Green, Brown, Black, there is a market for all of these.  They all work or they wouldn't be for sale.  Some like Ford and some like Chevrolet, pick your color and learn to be a good operator and you can produce award winning prints and make money.  If you buy from M&R, expect the very best, if you buy from Brannon, who I consider a good friend, you will also get the best in service because he and Scott are great guys and will do the right thing, I feel certain of that.  Sonny, a nice guy aswell and he was definitely intrigued when he saw up close my CH3D.  I have seen award winning prints come from ALL of the above mentioned colors, most people I would guess buy on what they can afford.

[spotcolorsupply]

Blue, Red, Green, Brown, Black, there is a market for all of these.  They all work or they wouldn't be for sale.  Some like Ford and some like Chevrolet, pick your color and learn to be a good operator and you can produce award winning prints and make money.  If you buy from M&R, expect the very best, if you buy from Brannon, who I consider a good friend, you will also get the best in service because he and Scott are great guys and will do the right thing, I feel certain of that.  Sonny, a nice guy aswell and he was definitely intrigued when he saw up close my CH3D.  I have seen award winning prints come from ALL of the above mentioned colors, most people I would guess buy on what they can afford.

Thanks man!!! That means a lot to me!!

[spotcolorsupply]

I was thinking earlier today about all of this... And a quote came to mind from a forum long long ago...

From our friend InkBrigade..

Man i tell ya the screen printing drama doesn't end. I love it!

Last week i was wondering if people that make other machinery and their customers troll and flame each other on boards?

Like the people that make the machines that make the tillamook cheese. Do they fight with the people that make the machines that make the velveta cheese?

Screw your cheese machine! No screw YOUR cheese machine!

That'd be awesome!

I nominate that quote as best quote ever!!!

Dated August 15, 2011... Good ol times 

(I removed the first line for obvious reasons)

[Prosperi-Tees]

Screw your cheese machine lmao that is hilarious!

[Frog]

Thing is, even though Inkbrigade said that he loved the drama, he found us here, a forum that was started to provide a little break from just that.

As for other machine forums on which the fan boys act similarly;

"What's the correct spark plug gap for my '67 327 small block?"

"Oh man, Chevys suck, get a Hemi!"

[GraphicDisorder]

In all of my years selling workhorse products here at Spot Color Supply, and at the company I use to work for, I have Never had a customer want to return a machine that I sold them.

Which stands to reason, why don't other manufactures of autos if they are trying to be competitive and they aren't worried about people returning them what do they have to lose?  M&R must think they have nothing to lose.

The only person with something to lose in this situation would be an end user... And even with that so called 100% money back guarantee, said end user is out 4-6K... I personally as a distributor wouldn't be all that interested in running around bragging about a 100% money back guarantee that in the fine print cost 4-6K... We are not talking about your buddy RRRRRWWWWWBBBBB here, these are both reputable companies with excellent track records.

If the guarantee meant nothing or didn't have impact we wouldn't be discussing it would we? I think it shows the confidence in the product and confidence in its value if one ever does come back that it will easily be sold. Obviously as much as they are bragging about it others are trying to down play it, at least outside looking in that is what I see. I suspect M&R could run that guarantee out a lot longer than 45 days and still see no risk or presses coming back.

[Binkspot]

I think the money back guarantee is a moot point. If you have done your research and willing to write that check you already have the confidence in the equipment to buy it. I find it hard to believe someone would go through all that effort only to find they don't like it and send it back.

What really maters is how the mfg stands behind the product after it's on the floor. If a machine hits the floor and is a lemon i would expect the mfg to stand behind it. Most likely if there was a major issue with the press it would rear it's ugly head in the first week or two.

[Doug S]

This has nothing to do with presses but refers to a used embroidering machine.  We in the last 3 months purchased a 2000 barudan 6 head embroidering machine and paid 75 % down with the remaining to be paid when the 2 days of training was completed.  It's an old machine with older technology which is to be expected with a 14 year old piece of equipment. 

I won't mention who I purchased the machine from yet unless it doesn't get resolved.  This has been a nightmare from day one.  We were told that the machine would arrive to us 2 days later than we were originally told because they were going to do a sew off to make sure the machine was up to par which I was fine with because I wanted to receive it in good working order.  Had to tear a wall out to get it located in a humidity/climate controlled area in the shop which was a pain but had to be done.  The 2 days of training ended up being 2 hours because the rest of the time the tech spent installing parts that they determined it needed.  The tech left us saying that the machine is working great and if we needed anything just call. 

I'm pretty saavy when it comes to picking up on new software so I decided to do some practicing.  I cut up some old tshirts and managed to hoop them with the backing in place and loaded up all 6 heads.  I just created 9 letters to use all 9 needles, digitized them with the appropriate density for that size letter and hit the start button.  Only 1 of the heads actually finished the complete 9 letters.  The rest either stopped or kept on trucking even with the thread coming out of the needle.  I replaced the needles and re-threaded the problem heads, sent the job again with the same results.  I was thinking ok, I'm sure it has something to do with the tension.  I felt that the tension would've been adjusted in the "sew off".

I called the seller and told him of the problems I was having and about the lack of training we received.  He told us that he was having the tech come back to complete the training.  When the tech arrived, I told him if he could send a job to the machine using all 6 heads and all 9 needles with it completing the sewing successfully that I would be happy.  He again spent most of the day working on the machine and give us his conclusion that one of the heads would still need more parts for it to sew correctly and that he would have the seller send them and told me how to install them once they arrived.  He did tell me that 5 of the heads would sew fine and just not to use the problem head until the new parts were installed.    I had no problem with installing the parts but that told me right a way that the machine had obviously never been sewn off because these problems would've been discovered and the tech agreed also. 

After he left, I decided to send another job to the 5 supposedly working heads and ran into the same problems as before.  So again I called the seller and was told that the tech would come back.  Turns out that he arrived back at the same time the new parts arrived.  He installed the new parts and kind of scaled the brass fittings that were supposed to tell the machine to stop when the thread either came out of broke.  So again, he was going to a sample file that he had created to the machine and use all 6 heads and all needles.  To make an already long story a little shorter, even his file only completed on 1 head and some of the heads kept going even with no thread in the needle.  I'll give the tech credit, he spent all day with no breaks working on timing, trimmers, thread gates and God only knows what else.  He tried several times to sew with 6 heads and finally told me that he was out of cards and didn't know what else to do to get it working.

This machine is going to have to go.  The seller is a little harder to get a hold of now.  If you call or email him you may hear back from him in a couple of days.  He is now wanting us to get this monstrosity back to him which is a 528 mile trip 1 way.  I've just told him to refund our money and he can get it at his convenience also that I would tear the wall out again and help load it back on the truck.  STILL HAVEN'T HEARD BACK!!


I know this post is extremely long but what a freakin nightmare and since we are on the subject of equipment! 

[3Deep]

The post above is what I've said about guarantees and warranty they are just words on a box or pc of paper unless someone takes action to honor it.   Spotcolor also brings up a good point about new equipment hitting the market, if giving its due it will prove itself or fail, but there are a lot of factors to it getting it's due like the companies past rep and other companies beating it down before has a chance, and all this is business, keeping your share of the market...nothings fair in love and war if your trying to stay at the top of the heap.  IMHO there only few guys on here that know equipment, they have the years and experience to back them up, I can only tell you about the press I have and everything else is hearsay so to speak.  I bet if your open minded and could take the best from all the presses you've seen or shop for and make one nice press it would be a mixture of names and colors.

Darryl

[TCT]

So the reason I had mentioned the M&R "100% money back guarantee" not exactly being accurate was because I ALWAYS read the fine print ever since about 8 years or so ago I found out the hard way- We have a men's suit company up here "The Mens Warehouse" (not sure if it is nation wide) well their slogan on all their commercials was the owner coming on and saying "You are going to like the way you look, I GUARANTEE IT".  I had to return something there once and had a back and forth with a employee for like 15 min. Then I thought "OH! The commercial!" So I told the sales guy I didn't like the way I looked and that was why I was returning the item. Ya, he said it was a no go.... Long story short, I left the item on the counter and let them know my feelings On my way out the sales guy said I was banned from their stores now!    Oh well, I never liked to wear monkey suits anyway!

[jvanick]

They're here in Chicago too...

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