Decisions, decisions...

[sqslabs]

Been lurking for a while, and really appreciate the free sharing of knowledge going on here.  It's definitely an inspiration and pushes me to become a better screen printer every day.  So thanks much for that. 

I'm currently in the market for a 10 color press, which will be my second automatic.  I've had an older 6/8 Javelin for about four years and have outgrown it over the course of the past year.  I'm planning on keeping it as my secondary press, with my trusty ol' Rototex as #3.

I was originally planning on buying a larger used machine, but am now leaning toward buying new.  So far I've been looking at the Sportsman EX and the Sabre, both right about where I'd like to be pricewise.  I've seen a Sportsman in person but have only seen the Sabre in videos.  Both are impressive machines, with the Sportsman leading the race in tried and true functionality, and the Sabre pushing the boundaries of innovation. The 20x20 print area on the Sabre is a huge plus, as I do a lot of fashion printing and would love to get the oversized prints off my manual press and on to an auto.

I'm definitely a tech oriented guy, and am drawn to the Sabre because of that. It was a smart move to take the software approach to a screen printing machine, and it may be a while before the others are able to catch up on that front.  But then again, this isn't an iPhone, its a machine for printing t-shirts.  And at the end of the day I'd simply like to lay down as many high-quality prints as possible in a workday, while running into the least amount of issues with the machine.

Would love to get anyone's opinion on the matter, especially those who have seen the Sabre in action. I haven't been able to track down any specs on the speed of the machine, and would be interested to hear a bit of info on that if it is available.  I know the Sportsman is a great press. I'm just trying to figure out where the Sabre stands in the race.

Thanks for the input.

-Brett

[gtmfg]

Until someone offers the customer service that M&R is giving I wouldn't look anywhere else.

[GraphicDisorder]

We had a Sportsman EX 20x20 and loved it, we were printing 23 inches tall on that machine.  It's pretty fast, its a rock solid machine and its backed by M&R.  Contact Rich (244) on these boards he's the CEO of M&R.  If you can stand a 8/10 our barely used Sportsman that I suspect will have a full warranty as if new and I believe is still available as the buyer never got their crap together and M&R hasn't re-listed it.  Our machine wont last long once they repost it as available.  Very low impression count, looks and runs brand new.  It's a 2011 press.  If you need more head still would say contact Rich.  M&R is a great company to work with and their support has been amazing. 

[jvanick]

I'm a big fan of workhorse... and I like the design on the saber... but...

2 words (or maybe 1?):

tri-loc

as far as I'm aware workhorse still doesn't have anything like that... although I guess you may be able to use a triloc platten on a workhorse press?

[sqslabs]

Thanks for the input.. 

In regards to customer service, I do have a Heatwave dryer which was purchased new about four years ago, and haven't had the best customer service experience with that.  But from what I gather, the issues I've had with the dryer (mainly the mounting of one of the motors) is something that doesn't happen very often.  I ended up figuring it out and making a repair on it myself (after replacing many unnecessary parts through phone conversations with the manufacturer), which while not perfect, does allow it to run.  I definitely seem to be in the minority in this experience though, so I'm not holding it against M&R while looking at a new machine.  I should also mention that I did have one earlier experience the first time I had an issue with my spark plug (this is my first gas dryer), and they did send a tech out on a Saturday to get me back up and running.

On the Workhorse side of things, I've experienced great customer service with them since purchasing my Javelin, and it was a very old press when I bought it. Their tech support has been second to none anytime I've called and have had me back up and running very quickly.  It is a pretty straightforward machine though, and I've been able to make most repairs on it myself with their help. I'm also fortunate enough to have a great local tech a few miles down the road who works on all brands, although he does specialize in M&R.

Although I haven't had it quoted, I'm fairly sure that the EX 2020 is just outside of my price range.  I had the 1618 quoted and it was very close to my max budget with a single Red Chili flash. Then again, as there seem to be many more used flashes available used than there are used Sportsman presses, I may take that route on the flashes and get two right out of the gate.  I also need a 10 color at the least, as I know I just wouldn't be happy with an 8.  Thanks for the heads up on that, GraphicDisorder.  I wish it were a 10 color! 

As far as registration systems go, its definitely something I'd like to integrate into the new machine immediately.  The Sabre specs do say it is "Compatible with most pin registration systems", which should leave me some decent options if I end up going that route.

Apologies if I'm just running around in circles here.  This is the largest investment I've ever made, and I just want to make sure its the right one before pulling the trigger.  Any and all comments are appreciated.

[ScreenPrinter123]

While I have only briefly seen one sportsman in person from everything I have heard and read you cannot go wrong getting one.  We started out with a new Freedom then moved to a Progressive Rhino and now we have a new 2M AC/Servo machine.  My only concern with going with the Sabre would be the micros and the friction printhead carriage rails.  Going from the freedom to the rhino (both all air machines) was a step up in print quality and ease.  It is hard to beat Phil and the customer service that you get form Workhorse though so that is something to consider.  Enjoy the research, I think that might be the most fun during the entire process!

[alan802]

TUF/Workhorse/Progressive are second in customer service to only M&R overall and in individual cases can meet or exceed that level.  As for the machines I think the ones listed here so far have more pros than cons and it seems that the machines that I prefer to operate fall short in the other aspects of owning an auto other than the press itself and you simply cannot discount service and support after the sale regardless of how great the press is.  We own the same brand/type of machine that ScreenPrinter123 does and I'm not sure if he agrees with me or not but I can say without a doubt in MY MIND that our press, based on just the machine and it's features for the money, cannot be topped, but we can't just buy an auto on those principles alone.  Buying a press from a company who is essentially a one man show with a few guys helping out part time can have it's advantages but there are drawbacks to that as well when it comes to needing some help with something.  If my support person is on an install somewhere in the country and can't take a call I have one other person to call and he's got a full time gig and only builds autos in his off time.  You don't worry about that with M&R or Workhorse.  I've rarely had the need for support with our machine and all but once I have gotten the help I needed right away, had to wait a half day for the one and that is fine with most shops.  It's actually better than some of the other larger manufacturers but not as good as M&R or Workhorse. 

[TCT]

If you are not in a serious hurry, I'd suggest a trade show or some way if checking both out in person. As you already know you will be hard pressed to find a unhappy M&R customer in the states.  And the Sportsman has a proven track record.
That said, Workhorse has stepped up their game VOLUMES with the Sabre. I was watching and learning about it at the ISS show yesterday, the interface is EXTREMELY cool, functional and to a point customizable. It hands down beats the Sportsman in that respect until the CHIIID interface is added to the Sportsman line.

I have a feeling the Sabre will be putting up some serious competition here in the near future!

[hoogie]

I was in the same boat as you with the choice of the sabre...It really came down to a couple of things...One and the big one....there is no proven track record with the tuff press. no production numbers on this press at all...they been dry cycling one that have over a million prints i'm told but gets torn down every so offten to get everything checked out. The other thing i didnt like was the back screen holder thats on the outside of the press is adjustable...anything that adjustable cannot hold reg. like a sold one like the sportsman so if you've tried using the tri-loc on the javi like i do your never spot on due to the flex and i've even shimmed mine to reduce the flex of the screen holders...i've had our sportsmen just under 2 weeks so i'm well aware of the pros and cons of tuffs sabre system...the sabre drive is also a little suspect to me...if the motor on that thing goes out were talking big bucks...and that thing is moving a lot of weight...so not if but when it goes out....I also am running a javi right along side of my sportsmen...that thing is a tank...not one day down on that thing in over five yrs. and it's grown our business to allow me to purchase the 10 color sportsmen...We've got 10,000 prints on our sporty and thats with the javi running also...like you one thing i can say is that phil over there at tuff is top notch...always helped whenever i need something....an as dumb as it sounds the business i've gained from just the rep of the prints from the sporty the next press i get i'll again vist the sabre..maybe then they'll have production numbers instead of just dry cycles...and i'll be able to talk to someone about there thoughts on the press...i came down to trust, support and proven production numbers...dang near all tee shirt print awards in the last five years were on a sporty that i know of...just food for thought...

[rdavis5050]

Due to the durability and customer service.....M & R


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[strangeplanet]

Hey,

I checked out a Sabre at the ISS Atlantic City for the better part of an hour, and I also spoke with M&R about the Sportsman. After a bunch of consideration and seeing a Sportsman in a shop setting, I would pick the Sportsman. Although the Sabre has a ton of attractive and innovative features, I felt that it was lacking in that its indexing system appears to be a hybrid of traditional servo indexing and some sort of Geneva-gear-ish drive you'd find on an sRoque. Blending traditional and innovative technologies on a machine this expensive is a little too steam punk for me. Just my first hand impression from talking with Tim at ISS, and I am not claiming to be any kind of expert on the matter. Tri-Loc does work on both, however, so keep that in mind when making your decision.

I've spoken with Brandt about his press and similar M&R machines and he's given me some really good tips and advice in terms of what to look for in a press. Right now we're actually beginning to take a look at sRoque as well.

I love that this board is full of so many knowledgeable printers who can relate their first hand experiences with particular machines, rather than just nay-saying based on the mood of the internet at the time.

When it finally comes time for us to pull the trigger on our first auto, I will create a comprehensive thread about which press I chose and why, in an effort to better serve the screen printing community at large.

[Binkspot]

Either press will do the job it's more of which one fits the needs of the shop. Maybe the shop is limited for space and a Flash back would serve their needs or they have other Workhorse presses and want to stay the same brand.
 As far as the operator interface other then a few bells and whistles on the Saber they are both esentaly the same, both touch screens with multiable menus. If I remember correctly the tablet just interfaces with a standard PLC that runs the press. MHM and some other European mfg are using a tablet interface.
The Geneva drive is not something "new" it has been used on other applications for years and sure Workhorse would not use it if we're not reliable. Maybe Rich can chime in here but I believe M&R was or is working on a press with a Geneva Drive and American had/has a press that uses it. I couldn't imaging the drive motor costing any more then a traditional servo motor used on other indexers. Not to confuse anyone but SROQUE uses a chain drive system for indexing at least on the machines I crawled.
I spent a considerable amount of time in Long Beach looking at the Saber, talking with Tim and over all was impressed. They listened to what the customers were looking for and did it. For a middle of the road press it appears to be a nice machine.
I'm not sure what Hoogie is talking about the rear screen holder moving, curious what you mean.
As far as support M&R is second to none but Workhorse isn't far behind. We never had a problem when we had the Jav or Olypian.

[TCT]

The Sabre is a geneva drive yes. But like blink said it has been around forever. I believe the very first autos on the market used a form of grneva drive if I'm not mistaken. Blink is also partly right, but there are 2 S.Roque presses that are geneva drive- the YOU and the Nano(not a full size machine).

[blue moon]

Having won and knowing most of the other recent winners, MHM and M&R challenger presses are responsible for at least 60% if not 75% of the award winners.

The sabre is indeed an impressive machine. I spent about an hour with Paul going over it and under right circumstances it could be a press we would buy. To be honest, I also spent an hour with Rich and the sportsman is also much more press than I anticipated. If we were looking to buy an entry level press both would be on a very short list of possibles. Sabre has a significantly nicer looking interface and the sportsman seems mechanically more mature. Flashback option is another definite plus for smaller shops with the sabre. Sportsman on the other hand seems a little more in tune with serious production needs.

Seeing them in person would be a must and if possible, you should see them on the production floor.

Pierre

[hoogie]

rear screen holder as in where the micros are, they are adjustable for different sized screens like on the falcon. the genva drive is a very durable drive system...problem is 10 color is the biggest they'll go due to drive motor size and cost. if i'm not wrong. yes the press is tri-loc usable...but i'm not sure on the flex of the rear screen holders...I didnt get that far. Paul said that he'd get me out to see the press if i pulled the trigger. But instead went 2 citys over and looked at acouple of sportys in production and was inpressed with the total counts on the presses with the history of break downs which were none...and there ran hard 15 plus hrs a day...Like i said sabre impressed me...i love the bells and whistles on the interface...but with this being the first brand new auto for me i was not willing to put bells and whistles above proven production numbers....if its anything like the rep. of the javi in the future then yes i'll look more into that press in the future...i really do like the press....just erks me that at the time of me being in the market for a new press there were no companies that i could talk to....I know i wont go wrong with the sporty i've purchased Rich was the 2nd person to reply when i started my thread...man that means alot....and my sales guy stops in just to chat and make sure theres nothing up with the press or anything that i need help understanding....