H.S.A (High Solid Acrylics) Rutland vs Matsui 301.

[abchung]

We have been manually printing with Matsui 301. We could not get W.O.W(wet on wet) printing working on dark fabrics with a white under-base (Matsui 301-White, Matsui 301-Stretch White).

I just want to know if any of you guys used Rutland H.S.A before I go on a spending spree.
How good is it for W.O.W on dark garments?
How good is the opacity?

[TCT]

I have not personally tried the Rutland HSA's but have talked with two companies that were "OK" with them. The one company requested a Wilflex rep come out and the other place said he just didn't have time to see what else was out there. I know that doesn't help you too much, but I like you am looking for a "good" system that will work for us. The Rutland website leaves so much to be desired in terms of actual info about their HSA inks.... Do they have a "starter set"? As hokey as those starter sets seem I love them. Lets you test a company's product without a serious investment.

We just got in and sampled the MagnaColours HSA AquaPlas FF series..... Um it leaves something to be desired. The Magna mixing software is real nice, the company is well established, and they have a wide array of products that would make a total change over nice. BUT their open time in screen for the AquaPlas FF series is horrible! I'm talking MAYBE 10min. That was with no additives, just the recipe per the mixing program. They do say their Advanced Print line is supposed to have better open time....

I also wanted to try the Wilflex Oasis HSA/WB/DC system, but that starter kit is like $500. I have literally never had a bucket of any Wilflex product in my shop so with no previous experience personally I have been hesitant to hop on the $500 starter kit. That and the incredibly bad winter we have, I think any thing waterbased coming my way right now would freeze enroute! We may stay above zero next week so I may venture out.

I would be SUPER happy to hear from others about their experiences with HSA's. I know Chris(Zoocity) works with them(Chris thanks for talking to me the other day and helping me out. Dude my brain was fried and I'm sorry if I was a weirdo!). I liked the MagnaColours colors and ease, but man the open time sucked!!!!

[chubsetc]

While we're on the subject are the International Coatings Gen IV inks considered a HSA ink and has anybody used them?

[ZooCity]

We have started running some Rutland HSA, tore through 5 gallons of it recently. 

Open time was just fine and it even made it through being positioned between two flash unit, gnarly spot for any WB ink to be in.  They do make an open time extended, my printer didn't need it but we put a little in the ink for the screen between the two flashes. You do need to stop/slow down to rehydrate.  You can't just mist water behind the flood like withe standard WB/DC.  You need to mist and then run the head a few times on scrap shirts as it takes a little working around for the HSA to re-hydrate.  They say Wilflex Oasis HSA has the best open time, but it's certainly the most expensive.  May be well worth it for some, we need to test and see.

We have not done enough for me to say with full conviction but I think you will be very happy with the Rutland HSA WOW performance.  It flashes extremely fast, low tack. Just keep those platens warm and all should go well. 

Opacity is very good, similar to plastisol with a few exceptions.

[mimosatexas]

what's the selling point of HSA over plastisol or traditional waterbased inks?  It seems like the worst of both worlds, obvious hand with drying time on screen.

[abchung]

Thanks ZooCity, I might give it a go.

@Mimosatexas: It is the worst of both world. But some customers want soft hand-feel with heat-press. Also the colours have to be spot on. Any change in colours will be considered rejects.
I have customers that will give me 5 sets of 6 colours, I will have to print samples for all 5 set, then it will take them a week or 2 to decide which set of colours to print. If  I go Discharge, I will have to throw away a lot of inks.

As for hydrating the inks, I am thinking of using the mister that they use in fruit shops because the spray bottle is too dangerous for us.
Check out the following youtube clip @ 2:05

from china guangzhou auto screen printing machine video

[TCT]

Why would a spray bottle be too dangerous? All you need is water in it. The mister idea is pretty cool but that seems like a LOT of water on the press and it's parts. Maybe that wouldn't have much of a effect I don't know. Seems like some retarder additive would be easier though.

Zoo- are the pigments for the Rutland HSA ink the same ones used for their WB/DC inks?

[Mr Tees!!]

Thanks ZooCity, I might give it a go.

@Mimosatexas: It is the worst of both world. But some customers want soft hand-feel with heat-press. Also the colours have to be spot on. Any change in colours will be considered rejects.
I have customers that will give me 5 sets of 6 colours, I will have to print samples for all 5 set, then it will take them a week or 2 to decide which set of colours to print. If  I go Discharge, I will have to throw away a lot of inks.

As for hydrating the inks, I am thinking of using the mister that they use in fruit shops because the spray bottle is too dangerous for us.
Check out the following youtube clip @ 2:05
from china guangzhou auto screen printing machine video

...is that not the scariest sounding machine ever?!

[abchung]

we cant buy good quality spray bottles here. all Chinese products. 50 cent for nozzle/spray part. when we use it for 3 projects it starts to drip and squirt out large water drops.... these large water droplets leave light streaks down the image that is noticible after baking if you look carefully.
Another bad thing about Matsui 301 is the soft colours can shift if we change oven temperature, or belt speed as well. Those times were stressful times because the penalty for rejects was not nice.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk

[Ryan]

Maybe I don't get what a High Solid Acrylic really is, but I was told from a couple people that unless you are printing for a Nike of the world that requires a specific characteristic of HSA, to stay away from it. But again I don't know. What is the different from an HSA to an opaque waterbase?

[noortrd]

Its difficult to do wet on wet printing  with water base inks.

[tonypep]

Half true. WB and DC latex based inks are quite easy wet on wet. My limited experience with HSA has proven difficult (and expensive)

[ZooCity]

Spritz bottles are important as the crappy ones will shoot out big droplets which can mess a print up, you want a fine mist and you want it consistently.  Flatstock printers know what I'm talking about here.  We're going to try some from the hair supply for this. A fruit mister would probably be great too.

Rutland HSA comes in RFU mix system and also a base that can be loaded with WB-99 pigs.  The bases for each are different and I am told the base that can accept WB-99 pigs is not as opaque which is why they developed the RFU base system.  This may wind up being a deal breaker for us in the end but we need to test the pig loading base and see.  I want one set of pigs for everything and then WB, DC and HSA bases, not multiple mix sets of RFU.  Wilflex and Magna's lines are all pig loading to base, fyi.

Yes, the HSA finish is very much like a transfer to the hand.  It's much smoother than a plastisol print but is still fully bridged and not breathable.  The two reasons for using it are to offer PVC free and/or to offer that hand/finish to the prints that plastisol has difficulty achieving. 

The Rutland Soft White flashes very fast and we were running colors over a flashed base with no cool down though I'm sure cool downs will be needed at higher color count as you build the ink film.  As in the Mark Gervais videos I would expect to get 2-3 colors down WOW before the next flash-cool.

HSA is opaque waterbased, high solids acrylic.  WB would be low solids acrylic.  Initially a rep from Rutland (not our current rep, who is awesome) gave us the same scare story, too bad for them as we could have been running their ink for a year or two rather than just getting started now. 

I don't think anyone who prints WB should have any issue with these.  We had next to zero dry in without addition of the open time extender and again, it's said that the WFX offering is even better on open time. Screen EOM, off contact, etc. is a weird mix of WB and plasti rules that we're still figuring out and that learning curve is definitely going to turn a lot of shops off.  In any case they won't completely replace plastisol for a number of reasons. 

As far as I understand it, HSA was developed for the sole purpose of being a PVC alternative so it's fundamentally not optimal as it's development is a knee-jerk reaction to the consumer frenzy to get away from PVC.  I'm down with not using PVC though I have to wonder how much better/worse "acrylics" are for the environment, where's the data on that?  PVC was preferred as an ink base since the raw material is readily available in a number of preparations, there are tomes of information on how it behaves, how to modify it to get it to do what you want, and it's molecular structure is much more accepting to these amendments v. acrylics.  Acrylics essentially have a hard shell around the molecule, or something like that, making it more difficult to modify than PVC which has no such "shell".

[ZooCity]

Also, just got our first tab for the Rutland HSA and the soft white by the 5 is more than WFX Quick White plastisol by the 5...something else to consider.

[jsheridan]

My limited experience with HSA has proven difficult (and expensive)

I'll match Tony's comment that the times I've used the systems they were difficult.

I used the Gen IV and magna series of inks enough to know that i don't like them.