Set-up Times

[Printficient]

What we have here is a failure to communicate...  I think we need to establish a starting point and finishing point.  To me if the press is not going round and round then no money is being made.  With that said the original post was about set up times as it related to the press and not "prep" time as relating to pre-press.
So then the clock starts when the last shirt of a print is pulled off the press and stops when the first shirt of a print is pulled off of the press.
When I was at Starter we had "press teams" that consisted of four people.  The loader, the puller, the catcher, and a "Third man".  My team routinely could do an eight color job using the parameters in the above paragraph in 20 minutes.  The catcher got the table full of laid out shirts to the press.  One person took out the eight screens in press with their squeegees and floodbars.  One person put the set up screen (either the black plate or the under lay) in the press centered locked down and printed and flashed that screen.  While this was being done the third person was putting the other seven screens in the press loose.  The set up person then registers each screen in order to the set up print and locks it down.  He then moves on to the next screen and so on.  He is followed bu pressman #2 who puts in the squeegee and floodbar who is followed by pressman# 3 who puts in the ink.  As the ink is going in the last color the press is already running a full test print.  Minor taps with a hammer and the first shirt is loaded and ran.  Total time 20 minutes.  This was in the mid 80's and there was no registration system used.

[Ryan]

So reading everythin my question/concern really had nothing to do with squeegees /inks/floods etc as they are going to take a certain amount of time and that really depends on who is doing it. I was more concerned that using a pre-reg system and when you put the screens on press, how long to dial them in. we all different methods to our madness in how we do it whether lining all screens up, then putting in everything or doing each screen 1 at a time, ie register,ink, squeegees etc, print and dial that one in and then move on.

So my question wasn't really accurate like most of the things I post. I for one put in underbase screen, flash and then line up all screens, then go back and add ink etc, print first color, if good move to next, if not, dial that color in and then move on to next color until everything is lined up and then do a full test print. Maybe I am wasting too much time doing that, but thats just how I do it.

I don't think a customer spends 4k-5k on t-shirts and when you print it its a little out and you tell them "its close enough" and that is how it is. We all strive for some sort of perfection in our work, not close enough (in most cases). So in that regard, I don't spend 4K on a pre-reg system to be in the ball park or close enough otherwise I could save the money and use a T-Square because that will get me "close".

It certain helps to here how others are doing it and time that it takes for others to get something in.

I am using a epson 4880 for films Alex.

Maybe I am a moron and I just don't get it and I am screwing something up 

[Screened Gear]

even with all the systems everyone uses, even if needing microing, 1/16th of inch or less (even a 1/16th would seem way out...in theory). So knowing that I register on a PRU with laser crosshairs and go to press with a "zeroed" out press, 1/8th of an inch is absurd? Would that be fair to say and that something doesn't add up???

I was saying: it's not like they are out a 1/8 or even 1/16th. They are never that far out with the FPU. Honestly I don't reset my press back to zero from job to job. I am sure that is part of the reason I may have more out of position screens. Maybe I'm pickier than most. It is hard to talk how off the screens are...What is it 100th of a inch maybe thousands. At that point its not noticeable to 90 percent of your clients. I use a loop to check my registration on press. MHM's you can adjust the micros on the fly so every once in a while I will check registration on press. Do a fine tuning of the job and then continue printing. Fine tuning is maybe moving the micros a hair what does that translate to screen movement 5,000/inch.

You should be able to print every job on press if you put the film on correctly. It should be that tight. All the microing I do is my error or my OCD to get that last one millionth off out of the registration.

[alan802]

I just scanned quickly through this and I think I understand that with your regi system you are having screens that are 1/8" or so out of registration?  With a good regi system (working) you should be within a point line at worst with all 6 screens of said job, in my opinion.  When we have a screen out, again, one out of 5 or so I mean it's about 1/2 point or less out and the rest are within a hairline of each other which in most cases means it's within spec.  Something is out of whack and we need to track it down to get you back where you should be.   

[mimosatexas]

1/8 of an inch is absurd.  Even eyeballing it quickly on my silver press was more accurate than that...

[Doug S]

For me a six color job would take an average of 15 to 20 minutes.  I do everything myself so I take triple care to ensure my films are lined up on my FPU.  Not saying mine is spot on everytime but I'd say it's spot on about 75% of the time.  If it's off usually it's by a hair and I can make an educated guess to fix it with the micros.  My registration has really improved after I re-leveled my heads.  Now the screens don't kick out of position unless the frame is warped a bit.

[Ryan]

This has answered my question. Something is out of whack and I need to figure it out. I totally get being out a half a turn here or there, as there is still humans involved, its the WAY out that gets me and can't wrap my head around as to why its this way and what went/is wrong. Seams really easy as to how it should work, but when it doesn't is frustrating as all hell.

So on another note to whoever is reading now, What is your setup procedure? ink every screen first? 1 at a time? run a full test print first? This is more curiosity as there is maybe something in these steps that can help my setup.

~Ryan

[dirkdiggler]

I load all 6 screens, ink, triloc and run a full test print.  tweak what little is needed and print.  Very fast.

[bimmridder]

I feel like some important things have been left out here. Maybe they've been discussed and I didn't see them. There are some factors that I think have an effect on set ups. I'll try to keep it short and sweet. Consistent mesh tensions and a quality press in great shape. There are dozens of other variables, but to me, these are big

[Rockers]

So reading everythin my question/concern really had nothing to do with squeegees /inks/floods etc as they are going to take a certain amount of time and that really depends on who is doing it. I was more concerned that using a pre-reg system and when you put the screens on press, how long to dial them in. we all different methods to our madness in how we do it whether lining all screens up, then putting in everything or doing each screen 1 at a time, ie register,ink, squeegees etc, print and dial that one in and then move on.

So my question wasn't really accurate like most of the things I post. I for one put in underbase screen, flash and then line up all screens, then go back and add ink etc, print first color, if good move to next, if not, dial that color in and then move on to next color until everything is lined up and then do a full test print. Maybe I am wasting too much time doing that, but thats just how I do it.

I don't think a customer spends 4k-5k on t-shirts and when you print it its a little out and you tell them "its close enough" and that is how it is. We all strive for some sort of perfection in our work, not close enough (in most cases). So in that regard, I don't spend 4K on a pre-reg system to be in the ball park or close enough otherwise I could save the money and use a T-Square because that will get me "close".


I am using a epson 4880 for films Alex.

Maybe I am a moron and I just don't get it and I am screwing something up 

We use a tri loc. Did a 5 color job yesterday and one screen needed a little adjustment. So setting up the job took less then 10 minutes, I would say probably 5-6 minutes. That`s without squeegees and floodbars and no ink in the screens. As we were new to the tri loc we had lots of jobs out of registration and I started to wonder why that is. Watched the video again that explains the whole process checked it against the way we used it and found the mistakes we made. Since then we love it and almost every job is bang on.
I say it saves a good amount of time having a registration system.
It certain helps to here how others are doing it and time that it takes for others to get something in.

[mimosatexas]

In the interest of helping others troubleshoot would you mind mentioning what you were doing wrong and how you fixed it

[Evo]

Consistent mesh tensions and a quality press in great shape. There are dozens of other variables, but to me, these are big

I agree.

The shop I'm in now has no registration system and frankly it drives me insane, cause I had one when I owned my own place and it ruled. We have a ton of work to do to even consider a Tri-Loc, and I am slowly eliminating some road blocks as I go. (I was recently put in charge of all maintenance and equipment issues)

Without some sort of registration system, a 30-45 minute total setup is not unusual for say an average 5-6 color job. We have 2 press ops and a "floater" press assistant.

So here's a few things to check and consider.

Is the press level/parallel? As in DEAD ON. All your heads should be in plane with each other and so should the pallets. You should be able to take a pallet to each head and see exactly the same off contact at each corner of a screen. This should be the same story on each pallet.

Are the registration points on the press (forks, bearings, etc) all adjusted correctly?

Are the frame holders on the press adjusted in/out correctly? Often if the air clamps are adjusted out too far they can bump the frame out of registration when they snap down. Make sure the clamp bars come down straight and square to the frames. It's easy to overlook this cause people adjust them out wide to allow more room for screen loading and adjusting.

Is the registration dead on before the screens are burned? If using films and registering to carrier sheets, or with an FPU, use a loupe and make sure the registration is tight. I used to register dot-to-dot of what my inkjet could produce. (no...really)

When exposing, whether with carrier sheets or not, make sure the film doesn't budge when setting it up in the exposure unit.

Check the frames for flatness. Warped frames can jump around when being clamped.


If you need to bump more then 1-2 screens per job with the micros, or things are out more than a hair consistently, then I'd say the press and other tools are not dialed in enough to reap the benefits of a registration system. It's a powerful tool not just for speeding up production, but it shines a bright light on any issues you may have with equipment or shop procedures.

[Ryan]

Shurloc EZ frames. Pretty consistent tension, mid 20s or better on most with an occasional screen that is below that. SRoque press, 18 months old, has been zeroed out twice, though I think some things got missed the first time seeing this was all new for the European guys and how we do things here. So second time, zeroed, heads checked to be in plane, pallets checked for level, off contact leveled. New PRU as of 2 weeks ago as my first one was cockeyed a little. Ultimately shouldn't have had any affect on press registration if registered all the same on PRU. Off contacts on all heads is between 1-3 cms roughly. Print between 40-60psi most of the time. Something is just not connecting and I haven't been able to figure it out yet. It has been way better since the second "fix" which was a couple months ago but just not what I expect with a pin registration system. I kind of expect perfection Its currently being sorted out, but I thought I would try to get some feed back on what others experience so that I might be able to relate to something that I'm having issues with. For the record I'm very happy with my press so no need to jump on me for buying green:D

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[inkman996]

So reading everythin my question/concern really had nothing to do with squeegees /inks/floods etc as they are going to take a certain amount of time and that really depends on who is doing it. I was more concerned that using a pre-reg system and when you put the screens on press, how long to dial them in. we all different methods to our madness in how we do it whether lining all screens up, then putting in everything or doing each screen 1 at a time, ie register,ink, squeegees etc, print and dial that one in and then move on.

So my question wasn't really accurate like most of the things I post. I for one put in underbase screen, flash and then line up all screens, then go back and add ink etc, print first color, if good move to next, if not, dial that color in and then move on to next color until everything is lined up and then do a full test print. Maybe I am wasting too much time doing that, but thats just how I do it.

I don't think a customer spends 4k-5k on t-shirts and when you print it its a little out and you tell them "its close enough" and that is how it is. We all strive for some sort of perfection in our work, not close enough (in most cases). So in that regard, I don't spend 4K on a pre-reg system to be in the ball park or close enough otherwise I could save the money and use a T-Square because that will get me "close".

It certain helps to here how others are doing it and time that it takes for others to get something in.

I am using a epson 4880 for films Alex.

Maybe I am a moron and I just don't get it and I am screwing something up 

I see one flaw in your process. That is printing one color flashing then printing the next checking reg adjusting then to the next color. Problem here is what if it is your first color that is out of reg? This means every single color afterwards will need adjusting because you are not adjusting the screen that actually needs it.

With a pre-reg system you should lock all screens in, ink them and run a test print. Looking at the test print you can narrow down which screens need a micro and which do not. With a pre reg your first print should be extremely close to perfect and only require minor micro adjustments.

[Ryan]

That makes sense. I am going to do that on my next multi color and see what I get. The first head which is usually my first I never change. Its always at zero and has been the first I've zeroed off of when its been zeroed so I just assume that this is the correct head to work from. I will try inking and running before I do anything next time.
Thanks


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