Newman panel mesh

[Rockers]

MZX and M3 Panels are different sizes

The supplier should NOT be telling people they work in both frames.

Not according to the guys at Stretchdevices, but I would have thought so too that they are different size.

Anyway I have measured again the distance in between the rollers of both our frame types.
M3 27.75 inches
MZX 28.15 inches
That measured between the rollers, so we have a difference of 0.4 inches.

[Squeegie]

I went through this a while ago as well.

Used to always use the Newman mesh by the yard and would cut (rip) and stretch manually.
I tried the Shur-loc panels and never looked back (8 -10 years)...until I saw the Newman mesh was available in panels.

I went the the distributors site and wanted the 23x31 mzx panels but didn't see them available, only the M3's.
I asked them about the availability of the mzx and they told me the same thing as the OP, that they would fit.
I disputed this with the distributor and received a reply from Don Newman (Stretch Devices). 
He ensured me that they would fit. 

One thing I saw that was different in the information he sent me to what I have found in my shop is that he stated the MZX and the M3 UL were compatible.  I don't have any M3 UL frames to compare them with, just the older heavy duty M3's.

I will have to try the Newman panels in an mzx here and see what I find.

[shurloc]

Just to clarify, yes, the shapes on the M3 and MZX frames would need to be very different to work. I can also tell you that we have yet to manufacture a Flash Panel in the 23x31 MZX size for Stretch, so anyone selling them would probably try and say that the M3 would work in either frame. With the extreme shapes that are used on those, I can pretty much guarantee that they won't interchange. The corners and tubes are much smaller on the MZX which would require a completely different pre-softening and deflection measurement. That combined with the fact that the M3 is a smaller ID, makes for an almost impossible dual purpose panel.

[pwalsh]

Just to clarify, yes, the shapes on the M3 and MZX frames would need to be very different to work. I can also tell you that we have yet to manufacture a Flash Panel in the 23x31 MZX size for Stretch, so anyone selling them would probably try and say that the M3 would work in either frame. With the extreme shapes that are used on those, I can pretty much guarantee that they won't interchange. The corners and tubes are much smaller on the MZX which would require a completely different pre-softening and deflection measurement. That combined with the fact that the M3 is a smaller ID, makes for an almost impossible dual purpose panel.

I fully agree with this position and even the information on the Stretch Devices website confirms that the panels for the M3UL and for the MZX frames are different, which only makes sense given the different diameter of roller the M3 (1 5/8" / 1.625") and MZX (1 7/16" / 1.4375").  The math just doesn't lie, and with two frames of the same width the distance between the center points of the channels on an MZX frame will always be 3/16" or 0.1875" wider than it is on a M3 profile frame.

[alan802]

quote author=pwalsh link=topic=10581.msg102753#msg102753 date=1390583085]

Just to clarify, yes, the shapes on the M3 and MZX frames would need to be very different to work. I can also tell you that we have yet to manufacture a Flash Panel in the 23x31 MZX size for Stretch, so anyone selling them would probably try and say that the M3 would work in either frame. With the extreme shapes that are used on those, I can pretty much guarantee that they won't interchange. The corners and tubes are much smaller on the MZX which would require a completely different pre-softening and deflection measurement. That combined with the fact that the M3 is a smaller ID, makes for an almost impossible dual purpose panel.

I fully agree with this position and even the information on the Stretch Devices website confirms that the panels for the M3UL and for the MZX frames are different, which only makes sense given the different diameter of roller the M3 (1 5/8" / 1.625") and MZX (1 7/16" / 1.4375").  The math just doesn't lie, and with two frames of the same width the distance between the center points of the channels on an MZX frame will always be 3/16" or 0.1875" wider than it is on a M3 profile frame.
[/quote]

I'm not really sure how this is can be debated since we have a very well respected shop owner saying he's put M3 Newman Flash Panels into over 300 MZX frames without issue, and I have done the opposite and put Shurloc (sefar/saati mesh) MZX panels into M3 frames at least 25+ times.  So I guess the impossible has become possible or someone has really screwed something up somewhere along the way.  We've bought panels from GSG and straight from Shurloc and I know the panels from Shurloc were M3's going into M3 frames, but the GSG bought panels were MZX panels made by Shurloc with Sefar or Saati mesh.  Those are the facts with two shops, but Rockers has tried the same scenario that Danny has done over 300 times and now all of a sudden it's not working.  That tells me that a recent change has occurred with manufacturing because I know that Danny is not mistaken and I'm also 100% sure we've put panels that were labeled "MZX" in the corner into the older and newer style M3 frames.  So what was impossible in the past was actually possible but has now become impossible...possibly?

[DannyGruninger]

I need to do some digging through my email as I'm almost positive(not totally sure so don't hold me to it until I find the email) but I had some pretty lengthy conversations with Don Newman himself regarding all this and I'm fairly confident he told me himself m3 panels will be fine in mzx frames and vice versa. I have ordered newman "flash" panels straight from Don, as well as through other vendors and they always come to me labeled m3 for use in my mzx frames. I have over 300 of these mzx frames in my shop - both older blue coated ones as well as ultralight silver ones and NEVER have I had an issue putting "m3" panels into an mzx frame. Every single print that I post in the "whats been printed lately" thread was done w/ mzx frames using m3 panels so there has to be something that changed w/ manufacturing or I've been a lucky man getting away with it this entire time. LOL

If you guys want, I'd be more then willing to post a video of me snapping an m3 panel into one of my mzx frames...... Not sure what that would really prove other then the fact we use m3 panels in mzx frames but maybe someone cares to see that it works for us???

[pwalsh]

  I fully agree with this position and even the information on the Stretch Devices website confirms that the panels for the M3UL and for the MZX frames are different, which only makes sense given the different diameter of roller the M3 (1 5/8" / 1.625") and MZX (1 7/16" / 1.4375").  The math just doesn't lie, and with two frames of the same width the distance between the center points of the channels on an MZX frame will always be 3/16" or 0.1875" wider than it is on a M3 profile frame.
[/quote]

I'm not really sure how this is can be debated since we have a very well respected shop owner saying he's put M3 Newman Flash Panels into over 300 MZX frames without issue, and I have done the opposite and put Shurloc (sefar/saati mesh) MZX panels into M3 frames at least 25+ times.  So I guess the impossible has become possible or someone has really screwed something up somewhere along the way.  We've bought panels from GSG and straight from Shurloc and I know the panels from Shurloc were M3's going into M3 frames, but the GSG bought panels were MZX panels made by Shurloc with Sefar or Saati mesh.  Those are the facts with two shops, but Rockers has tried the same scenario that Danny has done over 300 times and now all of a sudden it's not working.  That tells me that a recent change has occurred with manufacturing because I know that Danny is not mistaken and I'm also 100% sure we've put panels that were labeled "MZX" in the corner into the older and newer style M3 frames.  So what was impossible in the past was actually possible but has now become impossible...possibly?
[/quote]

Alan:  I have zero motivation (or interest) in debating your post, or the information posted by Danny.  If you and he have been successful in interchanging mesh panels that were specifically designed for Newman M3 frames between M3 and MZX frames, I'm  happy for you. I trust your assurances that interchanging the different panels between the different frame profiles works just fine.

With that said I place a lot of credence in this subject with the experience of the folks at Shurloc. I also know that the Stretch Devices website states that there are different panels designed for the M3 and MZX fames, and that the different roller diameters guarantees that there will be a different distance between the channels on a M3 and a MZX profile frame.

But if it's working for you then all is well with the world.  Keep calm and print on!

[Rockers]

Me as the original "owner" of this post would like to contribute as well a little more to it now. So it makes perfectly sense to me to fit a MZX panel into a M3 frame as according to my findings and understanding of this matter should be a little bigger then M3 panels. So of course they should fit in a M3 frame. The other way round I still doubt it but then I can`t say for sure as others here have had success in doing so. I spoke to the guys at Stretchdevices as we normally buy all our mesh and frames directly of them and they told me as well the M3 panels should fit and were designed to fit both frame types. Still don`t understand how though. The distance between the rollers is different so how can the same panel fit in both frames.
Now Stretchdevices offered us to give us another 10 panels free of charge if we pay the shipping. If they don`t fit either then we will have  26 panels that don`t fit. They never took me up on the suggestion me sending them one of our MZX frames plus one of the panels so they can check for themselves,as they have manufactured both products it should be a breeze for them to figure out why they don`t fit. Options are, either they panels are wrong and the supplier we bought them from this time is sitting on a whole bunch of them or the frames were done wrong back then.

[DannyGruninger]

Rockers, if your interested you can send me a frame and panel so I can compare to what we've got here. Email me(danny@usrecognition.com) and I will send you my shop addy. I'll compare to our stuff then ship it back your way, let me know if your interested that way we can figure out how your panels are comparing to ours.

[Rockers]

Rockers, if your interested you can send me a frame and panel so I can compare to what we've got here. Email me(danny@usrecognition.com) and I will send you my shop addy. I'll compare to our stuff then ship it back your way, let me know if your interested that way we can figure out how your panels are comparing to ours.

That would be great, just be aware we are located in Japan;)
But I might take you up on the offer if I don`t get anywhere with Stretchdevices.
By the way they have emailed me sizes of flash panels they have in stock and they measure as followed.
71.75 - 72.39 cm
Well now with our MZX frames being 72 cm from channel to channel I can`t see how the ones that are 71.75 fit. Our flash panels are shorter then those  they got in stock.

[shurloc]

Something that isn't being mentioned is that there are multiple shapes for the Newman Flash Panels. Stretch requested that the fabrics all be brought up to 45N and that requires a different size and shape for each mesh. Some similar meshes like the N102 and N115 are done on the same shape, but when you venture out to an N300 the physical shape of the mesh changes greatly. The pre-softening, deflection and tension levels of the M3 panels are designed for use on only the M3 frames and corners.

That said, if you have one of the larger shapes that will actually reach the rollers of an MZX, you can certainly stretch it, but it won't give you the results that a properly sized panel would. If you wanted to kick me over an email Matthias, I'd love to share a bit more about the NFP with you and if I can get some added details from you I can see if the will work in house and let you know.

Thanks - Ron

[Rockers]

Something that isn't being mentioned is that there are multiple shapes for the Newman Flash Panels. Stretch requested that the fabrics all be brought up to 45N and that requires a different size and shape for each mesh. Some similar meshes like the N102 and N115 are done on the same shape, but when you venture out to an N300 the physical shape of the mesh changes greatly. The pre-softening, deflection and tension levels of the M3 panels are designed for use on only the M3 frames and corners.

That said, if you have one of the larger shapes that will actually reach the rollers of an MZX, you can certainly stretch it, but it won't give you the results that a properly sized panel would. If you wanted to kick me over an email Matthias, I'd love to share a bit more about the NFP with you and if I can get some added details from you I can see if the will work in house and let you know.

Thanks - Ron

Sounds great. I will email you in the next few days Ron. I spoke to the guys at Stretchdevices last week and they still insist that the panels will fit both the M3 and MZX frames. Well I have not shared with them yet that they hardly fit the M3 frames. Unless I keep the locking bars in the channels with tape they will fall out as they seem to be that little bit short. We used to have 128N panels and there was no issue at all.

[bimmridder]

Listen to what Ron is saying. I agree that yes, they will fit. But you will not get the optimal results if you are using the wrong profile. Personally, I love them and can't imagine not having them. 500 plus screens in my shop, with mesh counts from 26 to 355, and EVERY one is a Shur-Loc panel. But that's just part of my system. They are a perfect fit IN MY SHOP.

[cbjamel]

Listen to what Ron is saying. I agree that yes, they will fit. But you will not get the optimal results if you are using the wrong profile. Personally, I love them and can't imagine not having them. 500 plus screens in my shop, with mesh counts from 26 to 355, and EVERY one is a Shur-Loc panel. But that's just part of my system. They are a perfect fit IN MY SHOP.

Bimmridder are you using the Newmans or reg if so do you prefer say Sefar over the others. Just curious on my part.

Shane

[Squeegie]

Just to follow up on this tread...
I just installed a Newman panel N300 mesh 23 x 31 for M3 into an MZX frame.
I ran into the same issue as the pictures that were posted with the mesh not reaching end to end. 
In order for the panel to be put in place I had to turn the rollers inward so that the channels were facing directly into the center of the frame.  I normally start with the rollers in a similar position as in the pictures posted earlier in the thread.

I was then able to get the mesh in place and stretched it to a quick 32 newtons.  I am not sure how far the roller will be turned when they are at a work hardened state, but as of right now it is not a lot.

I will post again when re stretched with details of my findings.