pneumatic vs servo and ac heads

[alan802]

I got to see the Sroque this weekend and I liked what I saw.  I need to do a review of the ISS Ft. Worth show sometime soon before I forget what I saw.  If/when we get a new press I don't know that I'll be able to choose a press that doesn't have as much precise control over the print settings as our RPM.  Flood & squeegee speed, pressure, print length, off contact, squeegee angle, flash time, bulb intensity, standby intensity, standby time, plus a few others I forgot have exact numbers that represent a very precise measurement that is duplicated exactly from one print head to the next.  Now if this press had knobs and toggles for everything it would still do all it can do now but it has been fantastic to be able to set a job up precisely like it was the last time we printed it.  It's also nice when you get to know the press well to be able to set up a job quickly because you know roughly what settings will work since you've done it so many times and each print head is the same and can be set exactly like the others and you know there is no difference.  The AC print heads with the encoder system allows so much of the digital readouts to be so accurate and repeatable from one head to the next.  The air rhinos have decent digital control but it's nothing like the AC machines.

I love the CH3 and the MHM machines, now the Sroque is in that group after spending some time around it.  I know that the machines that get me excited aren't exactly the ones that most shops can afford so that's why the entry level press market is so competitive.  Stepping up to AC print heads means you have fewer options for entry level machines but at least there are a few options available where 10 years ago there was almost nothing.

[Shanarchy]

What would you all choose? Two more colors, or servo/ac (6/8 with servo and ac or 8/10 pneumatic)?

[GaryG]

Trick question! 

Save up if you can for the 8 color servo/ac.
You'll have more money by then and will
be glad you did.

[ScreenPrinter123]

Agreed with Gary.  If you can afford that 8 color pneumatic, do yourself a favor and just get the 8 color servo so you aren't buying the servo 2 years later either kicking yourself or trying to find ways to lower your revenue because you're printing too much and not quickly enough or because you are in too high of a tax bracket... not that anyone does that who frequents here... but I hear it's done from time to time...

However, if absolutely unable to, I would go with 2 more heads provided you are getting a good chopper pneumatic press.  We've used both the V-squeegee and a chopper carriage on an all-pneumatic and currently have a 12/14 ac-servo. I'd say there is a huge difference between the pneumatic v and pneumatic chopper, at least in our experience (though the pneumatic chopper press was a rhino, which was a really nice pneumatic press -- but I imagine they may all be just as good these days???).  The major benefit of the ac heads that I've seen, as I believe has been mentioned already, is that while you can print with comparable quality (on typical prints), you can do it faster on the ac/servo presses, so you have more throughput capability per day when your business grows.  So for example, on the Rhino, we were probably printing around 7"-12" per second print speeds plus had a slower index.  Now we're doing 10"-25" per second print speeds (provided the ink cooperates, and most do [though not all]) and have a faster index with the servo index.  Maybe other variables changed that have created the big speed difference other than the print head speed and indexer, but printing with speeds twice as fast than the pneumatic on a multi-thousand piece order adds up fast.  So, I don't think the quality has improved, but we're getting jobs done faster, and thus you will be getting paid more per hour should your prices remain the same, which only means more time to pursue other jobs...and so goes the endless cycle.

Ok, I've stated nothing not already said.... but like Gary said you should just go servo 8 colors if you have the space to do an 8 color pneumatic press and consider it an expense to do business.   I haven't looked in a couple of years, but what can the difference in a monthly note really be between an 8 color pneumatic and an 8 color servo?  Not sure....

My $.02.

[TCT]

I am going to "third" the opinion to hold out for ac heads on the 8/10. If you are going to be running bigger more complex jobs with more colors you will want the ac heads....
You could always order a 8/10 with 6 ac heads and 2 pneumatic, say maybe on head 2 and 6 or something.... But I would still say go with the ac heads.

I know I am not exactly in your backyard, but you are welcome to stop out here and check out the difference in the two types.
You WILL NOT regret holding out for ac heads.

[Homer]

I am going to be a loner here and vote for more heads on the air machine. I have a 10 color gauntlet Deuce and I friggen love it....we also have a 6 color early generation gauntlet and there is a major difference between the two. So I would drop a vote for a current  (atleast year 2000 on up) all air machine and hell, you can do just the same with that as ac... not as fast, quite, nice but it'll do what you want it to...ac is the bees knees but man, it is NOT necessary to have a great press....but this is my humble opinion

[Shanarchy]

I haven't looked in a couple of years, but what can the difference in a monthly note really be between an 8 color pneumatic and an 8 color servo?  Not sure....

On a new press, I'm pretty sure I'd be going servo/ac. The increase in price seems like it would be worth it (although I have no actual experience with it).

Pneumatic vs servo/ac is more going to come down to used vs new. There seems to be some real good deals out there. So I was actually comparing and contrasting the idea of buying a used 8/10 pneumatic for a fraction of the cost of a new 6/8 servo/ac. If I did go that route it would definitely be a chopper, not a v, and be a somewhat newer press (less than 10 years old).

But I'm still in the early stages and have a lot more info to gather.

TCT, what state are you in?

[3Deep]

I agree with Homer you don't have to drive a Bentley just to go to the store when a Kia will work LOL, but being able to have the nicer stuff is good..

Darryl

[ScreenPrinter123]

I am going to be a loner here and vote for more heads on the air machine. I have a 10 color gauntlet Deuce and I friggen love it....we also have a 6 color early generation gauntlet and there is a major difference between the two. So I would drop a vote for a current  (atleast year 2000 on up) all air machine and hell, you can do just the same with that as ac... not as fast, quite, nice but it'll do what you want it to...ac is the bees knees but man, it is NOT necessary to have a great press....but this is my humble opinion

Nope, you're not a loner -- I agree with you if the choice has to be between two more air heads or 2 less ac heads.  At the end of the day, it all comes down to speed being the plus of the ac/servo, in my estimation.  If you the pneumatic will pump out what you need currently and you can find a steal of a deal on a pneumatic then go for it and upgrade in a few years when you have to have more throughput since you won't be so heavily invested in the pneumatic. 

[alan802]

I think if you go air, do yourself a favor and trade all your mesh in for S thread or equivalent.  S thread almost negates the advantages of AC heads if you were using standard thread mesh counts on the AC driven press, in my opinion of course.  I just know the advantages and differences in speed we see going from standard mesh to S thread is huge on an AC head so I'm assuming you'll see similar gains on an air driven carriage, but I've been wrong before.

[TCT]

I'm up in MN, aren't you out east? 
I guess another question would be,  are you thinking pneumatic index?  I don't know off the top of my head,  but a all air 8/10 would probably draw quite a bit of air..... I know our 6/8 all air draws more than our 10/12 ac.

Guess a good question that hasn't been asked is do you have steady work to keep a larger press running?  Chances are if you have the business to support it now,  in a year you will be busier and wish you went all out. 

When we got our first auto it was small and cheep. We couldn't fit a large press it even a 8 color in our first place. We literally had to take the front store front windows out to get the press and dryer in. Anyway we went small and cheep, no bells and minimal whistle.  After printing on that over the years,  I said to myself next press is going to have EVERYTHING, I want top notch! That is what we did and my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. 

If it comes down to a used machine, and you 2 station it ac heads,  if you have the room I would say 2 more stations. 

[bimmridder]

Whe we first went to A/C, one reason was we would have had to buy another compressor if it would have been an air machine. The price of A/C versus another compressor was so close it was an easy decision. No regrets

[Evo]

AC/servo all the way.

Better control, more consistency, easier to dial in, and FASTER when it counts.

If you need to upgrade later, better re-sale value if you want more heads.


I've used all air machines, air/servo machines and I currently run a AC/servo Sportsman. It rules.


IMHO, only pneumatic thing you should ever worry about is does the press have air clamps for the squeegees.

[Rockers]

I think if you go air, do yourself a favor and trade all your mesh in for S thread or equivalent.  S thread almost negates the advantages of AC heads if you were using standard thread mesh counts on the AC driven press, in my opinion of course.  I just know the advantages and differences in speed we see going from standard mesh to S thread is huge on an AC head so I'm assuming you'll see similar gains on an air driven carriage, but I've been wrong before.

Alan, correct me if I`m mistaken but didn`t you used to use as well Newman Roller Mesh. Just asking as most of our frames are stretched with Newman Mesh but we have changed now a few to Murakami and NBC S-mesh. For us with our Diamondback it`s much easier to print using the S-mesh so I might start changing more screens to s-mesh.

[alan802]

I think if you go air, do yourself a favor and trade all your mesh in for S thread or equivalent.  S thread almost negates the advantages of AC heads if you were using standard thread mesh counts on the AC driven press, in my opinion of course.  I just know the advantages and differences in speed we see going from standard mesh to S thread is huge on an AC head so I'm assuming you'll see similar gains on an air driven carriage, but I've been wrong before.

Alan, correct me if I`m mistaken but didn`t you used to use as well Newman Roller Mesh. Just asking as most of our frames are stretched with Newman Mesh but we have changed now a few to Murakami and NBC S-mesh. For us with our Diamondback it`s much easier to print using the S-mesh so I might start changing more screens to s-mesh.

I had 20 rollers with 205N in them but now I'm down to about 12, and then I had 5 102N's and they all exploded when I tried to retention them for the first time.  They wouldn't even get within 5 newtons of their maximum after 2 runs through production and they all popped within 30 minutes of retentioning.  I bought the panels and they were white mesh, which at the time white roller mesh in that count "didn't exist" from what I was told so I'm still not sure what I got.  It looked like roller mesh, but didn't hold up like roller mesh. 

I stretched them up in april 2011 and don't get me wrong, it's good mesh, but it's not great.  From what I know of the higher counts, the 272 in particular is it's great, Danny G runs the heck out of it at his shop so that tells me it's good, and there are several award winning prints that have gone through 272 so I trust it, but I haven't had the best of luck with the lower mesh counts.  The spec sheet for the roller mesh doesn't exactly match up with what you see under the loupe so I just don't like the fact that you don't REALLY know what you've got until put ink through it and do some measurements.  The specs on most all of the other mesh manufacturers I've used are way more accurate to what the mesh actually is so I can look at the spec sheets and get a good idea of what's going to happen when I use that mesh, not so with the roller mesh.  The thread thickness and open area that the mesh is supposed to have doesn't jive with what the spec sheet says but that's not a deal breaker for most shops and I understand that.  I'm just too picky I guess.