Industry pricing artwork of with or without separations...?

[sullyman]

Hey All,

I've come to a point in my freelancing (First year out) where the client based has picked up and I'm finding more and more that I'm working more and making less. Basically, selling myself out of business.

I do know pricing well enough but this is hopefully an area that artists, separators (being artists as well) would be willing to really offer up some advice. In lieu of the VFX industries creatives struggle to not be completely taken advantage due to outsourcing and subsidizing among others, and starting a guild/union. I'd like to maybe help others such as myself, better understand the industry we're in and make it profitable for all, including the clientele.

I'm not a fan of outsourcing websites as they bring a lower quality and drive market prices into the ground. Not to mention that you basically work for free. At risk of sounding smug...we all have families and for the most of us, want to make an honest living for a hard days work without fear of being under bid. Bids by amateurs that found a copy of Photoshop and watched a handful of Youtube videos. Not to say that those types don't deserve a chance (I'm completely self taught and wouldn't be here without that kind of help) because I'm one of them but  I feel I have paid my dues after years of being in the industry working in shops.

Essentially what I'm hoping for is that anyone willing to really offer up specific advice (actual numbers) they have seen and experienced and maybe formulas they use in providing clients fair pricing that doesn't kill you in the long run. I understand the whole "overhead+taxes+etc x hours + this / that" I'm more looking for actual numbers. I understand that is private information but I think a discussion about it could really help a lot of artists, including myself as well as the entire industry.

So to get started.... How much would you pay or ask, for a designs like these? How much with separations included?


Fully rendered in Photoshop (Raster)


Fully rendered in Illustrator (Vector)

[blue moon]

our customers would be paying probably about $500 or so for the top one and $200 for the bottom one. They would then pay $150-$175 to separate the first one and $50-$75 for the second one (it would depend on the color counts).
If combined, seps would add about half the regular price.

pierre

[sullyman]

Thanks for Pierre for your input! I'd love to see some others input on the same matter to be able to gauge the differences of situations.

[starchild]

With all that's going on in the first image/design.. (excellent work by the way) I wouldn't even bother doing that for a client with a small budget in  any case.. So I will get my money's worth..

The second image.. There's a market for that.. It's called out/crowd sourcing.. Too common and easily accessible..
But if you do about 100-200 or more designs of that type of work and lic it out-fully sep'd (cheap-exclusive- pricing) then you could have a possible gold mine
on your hands. So you can technically lic that 1000 times X $25 = winning.. Or you can demand $200 for your effort and worry about market conditions.

[sullyman]

I do like your strategy in approaching the market and that makes a lot of sense. I will most definitely apply some of the ideas you've listed to my own formula, so thank you Starchild  . I do find myself in a bit of a conundrum which is more a personal value in my artwork and what my clients now expect of me. 

It seems that, in my experiences, that $400 seems to be out of range for the high end work I do. I'm not really sure how to approach, as well being so new to negotiations.

[aauusa]

The top one I would easily pay $600 for and most provide the seps.

The second $75, hate to be lower but wanted to be honest

[repogolfer]

Sullyman.....that is some great stuff on your site.  It totally reminds me of how bad I am at artwork. 

If I had your skills brother, I would be loaded ($$)  sitting on a beach somewhere..just cashing checks.

Great job,

Jon

[sullyman]

@aauusa - Honesty is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm trying to gauge a realistic idea of what people being in the industry would expect to pay. I understand this is just a small number but being someone trying to stay afloat, everything helps.

@repogolfer - Thanks! Would you have any suggestions on what you think you'd pay for the work whether it was commission or pre-made?

[Sbrem]

Beautiful work. The top is easily $500, the bottom one is more of a slave to the market, too many in that style to command the type of money it should. Marketing your pre-sepped art at a low price with licensing does seem to make good sense. Consider Rival Art (vector for $12?) or Great Dane ($35.00 for raster 6c?) as good models.

Steve

[aauusa]

Well I gave you my figure what did you charge or what did you want to charge for that design. If you dont want to say I understand and the  Reason I ask if I am in the ball park we need to talk because I have an event each year that we do, which I contract the art out and your stuff is awesome.

[Dottonedan]

Top level art!


The bottom image while everyone is correct, the thing I see missing in the comments on that one is CUSTOM art and design.  So yes, Stock art should be lower, but a custom job (if the customer wants a unique design) then even tho it's limited color with no shading and could pass for vector, it should demand a higher price than a Great Dane or some clip art site. Still tho, THAT is who you are always compared to...when pricing 1-2 color jobs out like that.


Now, you do have artist who will do (custom designs) like that 1-2 color job and do it for $25.00 So yea, it's difficult in that arena. I will say tho, just like these same printers here tell me "to stick to my guns and get what I need to run my business for print prices" I'll tell you to stick to what you need to get for your art.


Why bother doing that for $25?  Yet, someone will tell you "thats what they pay" and it might be...but it don't look like yours. So if they want $25.00 let them get that from those other artist for the $25.  The 25 reference is only representative of a VERY LOW PRICE.


The trick with working with screen print customer is to always ask the details and to allow yourself to have a "relationship" with them to determine what you can really get out of this job. You want to get work and you want to treat them well so they can get the order and make a profit at the same time. It's a give and take.


I have a few select customers that I work with closely on price.  Some jobs I get what I want. Others, I come down based on the situation. My customers talk to me. They tell me "This is a first time customer so I want it to look good but it's only for 50 shirts.With that, I know I can't over do it on art. So I give them a good price...and then give them a 100.00 job for $50-75.00 I like that as it's more about relationships than $ with my customers. When they "need me"  I can work with them as I know they are not trying to rip me off (some have tried) and get eventually get dumped for better customers.


There are 3 types of screen print art (buyers) camps when it comes to getting screen printed apparel art.


1, Majority of the industry: Custom shops that do run of the mill 12-72 piece shirt orders for small businesses and ball teams. These places use clip art and often times don't see value or a need for paying much more for art than they do clip art (because their customers don't require anything better.


2, Middle of the road, more (seasoned customer base with savvy printers) that pay in the range many of our guys here have discussed. These are both custom and retail orders, meaning, some of their customers order 3000 tees and most have an average order in or around 72-144. They are more capable of handling a 6-8 color sim process print and some of their customers will or can pay decent money for art.


3, 20% or less of the industry (harder to find them) These shops usually don't spend too much time on forums or out in the open to discuss business. They stay under the radar or if known, they still don't participate on forums. Not so sure why, but probably wanting to keep what they've learned all tho themselves and some of the reason is due to trying to keep the customer base they have and not share who their customers are or how they do business with them. These are print shops that cater more to retailers, event planners, large corporations, theme parks and the like.


I meander between all three camps with art and/or separations and this probably has hurt my art business more than helped. anything because I don't focus on one area and have lost some connections or tie to invest in relations.


I think if you focus on and stay in one camp you can do really well.  Another artist of your calibre is Jeremy Duncan. I don't think I've seen him do a 1 color (simple) job ever. A 1-3 color duotone maybe, using some of his other past elements from previous jobs is his idea of a $100 quick job. I don't think he's doing 1 color vectors. Another artist top artist is Tom Wood. No, you won't see him doing stuff that is comparable to $35.00 clip art.


That top design everyone seems to be right in the same area. Between as low as $400.00. Thats super cheap but some artist will do it if it's slow or just want to steal business.  Most would be in the $500-600 range with and without separations. Your art seems to be on the TOP level, so I would even say that you could command $700.00 with the group that is in the #3 category of the top 20% of the industry. Still tho, these times have been especially tough for them and prices have dropped a bit. So even with them, they are paying in the area of $500-600 for art like that now - but often does not come with seps.  The category #3 are also customers that either have a staff of 2-5 skilled separators on hand or job it out as needed to people like me.


One thing I've learned, is that there really is a need for specializing or sticking to one style or even one customer base. I've tried to be all things to all people and it can hurt you in the long run.


D

[sullyman]

@aauusa - Thank you for the kind words about my work! Feel free to email me with anything job or not, always willing to help.

@Dan - Thanks for the input I really think that anyone starting out could really apply all the info you took time to post. I know I will.

If you all were wondering I sold the top piece for $385 to a client that I get work from regularly. I do still live with the notion that the market sucks and don't wont to lose any clientele based out of fear. The bottom piece was sold for $150. I really wanted to get a feel for what is going on out there in the industry as I don't really have the experience of pricing things out , when coming from an in-house position. This in turn affects negotiations in a negative way... giving me the thinking I'm over charging.

I do want to thank everyone for their input. This honestly isn't a post in the hopes of advertising work so I hope others chime in with questions they may have or work they'd like to get some advice from!

[blue moon]

John,

if there is one thing I have experience with, it's starting and growing businesses. I've done very well more than once and just like you, I was self employed in the beginning.
On top of starting my businesses, I was also involved in a venture capital circuit and had an opportunity to network with many, many ppl and companies just getting started. If there is ONE THING I learned and stick to, it is HAVE A PLAN! Just knowing where you are going, why you are doing it and how you are going to get there increases your chances of success by a huge margin. Answering these questions will tell you if you are suited for $25 artwork and if you have the personality to let the sub par art out the door. It will also help you figure out what will make you happy so work does not turn into a chore but rather into something you have a hard time peeling away from ('cause you enjoy doing it).

pierre