data redundancy

[GraphicDisorder]

We ARE talking about MY definition right?  I did say "That's what *I* call...

Anyway, if they are taking classes then they can be taught to do it right.  Have you ever looked at AD?  Not exactly something that someone that is comfortable with a "start" button and MS Word is going to be able to just hop right into and be able to wrap their heads around it.  It is enough of a drastic change that it might be even easier to hand them the tools to a *nix machine and let them add new users via the web interfaces that LDAP utils can provide in *nix.

My point is that just because you can get around and are comfortable in Windows (or Linux) doesn't mean you can jump into an LDAP interface and be ok with doing any functions in there.  Just like a person that knows windows and ms paint isn't going to just hop into PS and be able to use it worth a damn for anything other than applying filters.

I do agree with your last line: "I mean there are people that shouldn't screen print, embroider, run a business, walk in the street, or otherwise but they do.  That's life."  and my hopes are that all the rumors of suicide due to the pending "end of world" were true... just a few less of "those" people walking the streets.

Your comment was that technically it wasn't a server and that it was a Nas.  Interestingly technically you are wrong.  So now you are trying to make it about what you call it rather than what its tecnically called which was your original arguement.  So I corrected you with the actual definition of a server.

How a company decided to run their network isn't my problem.  Many companies choose MS.  AD I agree isn't super easy to pick up.  But very green people did it with training just in my own classes, so it's fair to assume it happend all over the world.  I haven't yet argued that I thought personally that ms was better choice than a flavor of nix for ME, I only said MS was smarter than you and that some or many companies pick MS because its familar to some extent.  Also people are trained to do brain surgery too in this world.  Anythings possible I hear, try offering a employee a double in pay to jump in to network management, that is if you wanna see motivation......

[GraphicDisorder]

<runs across the track and smacks the mechanical rabbit>

As far as the definition debate goes, I think of Wiki's first line as quite reasonable:  In most common use, a server is a physical computer (a computer hardware system) dedicated to run one or more services (as a host),[1] to serve the needs of the users of other computers on a network. Depending on the computing service that it offers it could be a database server, file server, mail server, print server, web server, gaming server, or some other kind of server. 

To get to the actual differences here, extremely efficient GUI's have been in existence for decades now--but with either mainstream flavor of 'window manager' (what many consider erroneously to BE the OS) is a bloated feature dump, getting bigger and bigger, version after version.   If you're wondering why people would be put off by large amounts of graphics intensive computing on a 'server' (whatever your definition is,) -- the server has been the last bastion of truly performance-based computing without any *inherent* need for the resource waste inherent in GUI-only systems.   The server does not need the GUI to perform it's tasks adequately, and in fact, the GUI is taking up valuable resources.

For those who may have never had the privilege of a computer history lesson from someone who didn't sell software, Xerox/PARC developed the GUI--not Apple and not Microsoft. 
They tested it with monkeys.  The goal was not performance based, but rather the sacrifice of what were, at the time, vast amounts of performance for large gains in ease of use. 

I'm not saying the GUI is a horrible invention, any more than the television is.  I wouldn't want to give up previews, interactive tools for layering, or try to map algebraic coordinates to 'draw' a design with weighted curves.  I occasionally see a TV show that doesn't make me wish I had that portion of my life back.
But it could certainly be argued that the massive amount of GUI integration in every facet of computers as well as embedded devices has led to ignorance and the waste of resources, similar to some of the effects of television at the scale it is consumed--or even what is considered 'internet' now, but in reality, is just a digital form of the same type of 'service'.

Perhaps what Kevin was trying to get at makes more sense, perhaps you're even more confused now.  I apologize if it's the latter.

I agree with most of this except I still don't know why we all ended up in a debate on GUI in a data redundancy thread.  But I guess this site wouldn't be right if a thread didn't end drift drastically.

[GraphicDisorder]

We can agree there about sloppy programming.   I do feel a lot of wasted bloat for mild improvements in software is the norm today.

Hardware is pretty cheap though. 

[Gilligan]

Your comment was that technically it wasn't a server and that it was a Nas.  Interestingly technically you are wrong.  So now you are trying to make it about what you call it rather than what its tecnically called which was your original arguement.  So I corrected you with the actual definition of a server.

How a company decided to run their network isn't my problem.  Many companies choose MS.  AD I agree isn't super easy to pick up.  But very green people did it with training just in my own classes, so it's fair to assume it happend all over the world.  I haven't yet argued that I thought personally that ms was better choice than a flavor of nix for ME, I only said MS was smarter than you and that some or many companies pick MS because its familar to some extent.  Also people are trained to do brain surgery too in this world.  Anythings possible I hear, try offering a employee a double in pay to jump in to network management, that is if you wanna see motivation......

Sure, I guess I got caught up in the semantics.  I still wouldn't personally identify that as a "server" from an IT stand point, no matter what label they through on it.  Like a smart car isn't really a car, it's a tin can on wheels at best.

I guess what I saw in the MSCE classes were a good bit different than you.  I saw people needing to go step by step through adding a new user to a computer in basic computer management (not AD) and STILL having problems.  The thing is, just because they sold the class and taught the students doesn't mean they would be able to function in the real world.  My brother worked at a big jewelery manufacturing plant and the value of paper certs went WAY down after a few bozos got certs and then couldn't perform the duties required.  That isn't an isolated example either.  Certs can simply mean you are good at memorization and test taking.

I had this kid trying to take my gig at an oil field company once... he told a guy that he didn't realize was going to come and tell me exactly what he was saying, "Kevin just gets this stuff.. but I'm going to school to learn it the right way!"  LOL.  All I could think was, if all the answers were in a book then there would be a book on the shelf and not and employee on the books.  Eight years later and I'm still at the gig... not sure where that kid is... but I'm sure his paper degree/certs got him a few jobs here or there.

You show me an intelligent person that can think outside the box and I will hire them regardless of experience and certs ANY day of the week over someone that can't think outside the box and lives in books.  Computer problems never go "by the book".

[GraphicDisorder]

Sure, I guess I got caught up in the semantics.  I still wouldn't personally identify that as a "server" from an IT stand point, no matter what label they through on it.  Like a smart car isn't really a car, it's a tin can on wheels at best.

Now this is a first ive seen, you admit you were wrong.  I like it, kudos there.  Label or no label it does a fine job for a small shop like mine and it certainly doesn't cost a lot or cost a lot to run.  I can live with that.

I guess what I saw in the MSCE classes were a good bit different than you.  I saw people needing to go step by step through adding a new user to a computer in basic computer management (not AD) and STILL having problems.  The thing is, just because they sold the class and taught the students doesn't mean they would be able to function in the real world.  My brother worked at a big jewelery manufacturing plant and the value of paper certs went WAY down after a few bozos got certs and then couldn't perform the duties required.  That isn't an isolated example either.  Certs can simply mean you are good at memorization and test taking.

OH I never suggested that certs mean everything, plenty of people with college degrees and certs out there that beyond book reports and memorization they had no real talent.  Fully agree with that.  This particular company is pretty interesting, they are very hard to get a job with, they are a HUGE company here and they pay better than about anything around here.  They promote within, many were moved into the network admin department before even taking the classes.  They are not picking just any random but yes some of them have very little if any network knowledge.  I seen some of them taking Network + and A+ before they hit a MS classes.  We did have what I consider to be a very good teacher and most people seemed to grasp it except for the occasional random generally not from their company.  Keep in mind it's not like all of these people where being put in charge of the network, they were working with a in place admin team.  This is a huge company, 1000's of computers to manage, 1000's of resources, etc. 

I had this kid trying to take my gig at an oil field company once... he told a guy that he didn't realize was going to come and tell me exactly what he was saying, "Kevin just gets this stuff.. but I'm going to school to learn it the right way!"  LOL.  All I could think was, if all the answers were in a book then there would be a book on the shelf and not and employee on the books.  Eight years later and I'm still at the gig... not sure where that kid is... but I'm sure his paper degree/certs got him a few jobs here or there.

That's all a degree/cert is worth for some people, is the foot in the door or a higher pay level.  We all know many companies will look at a person on paper before even talking to a person.  I would imagine without certs and degrees you may not even be talked to for some positions regardless of actual knowledge.  That's just a reality in life.  Seen that over and over.  My aunt was a human resources person at a hospital.  She actually didn't have the title though, because she doesn't have a degree, thus they do not pay her as well.  They flat told her this over and over.  Even though she was DOING the job.  In fact she did the job for 30 years and retired, but never got the official title.  "Semantics" as you say.  Cost her 100's of thousands over her career I would assume.

You show me an intelligent person that can think outside the box and I will hire them regardless of experience and certs ANY day of the week over someone that can't think outside the box and lives in books.  Computer problems never go "by the book".

I agree.  But the only way you and I will be able to make choices about hiring it to continuing to run our own businesses.  We wouldn't have the credentials to make those choices at most places, but I assume like me you can live with that as well!

[Gilligan]

I tell these kids that all the time.  Don't look at me as anything but an exception to the rule and the only way I am doing as well as I am is because I own my own business.  I could do what I do and make as much as I do working inside another company.  I don't have the degrees that they want to see.

That being said, my brother doesn't have a degree or certs and he's doing well for himself as a data analyst at a decent sized local bank.  They are looking to get into software development with a few of the concepts they have and he will be running it.  But again, exception and certainly not the rule.

[GraphicDisorder]

I tell these kids that all the time.  Don't look at me as anything but an exception to the rule and the only way I am doing as well as I am is because I own my own business.  I could do what I do and make as much as I do working inside another company.  I don't have the degrees that they want to see.

That being said, my brother doesn't have a degree or certs and he's doing well for himself as a data analyst at a decent sized local bank.  They are looking to get into software development with a few of the concepts they have and he will be running it.  But again, exception and certainly not the rule.

Oh ya, always exceptions to anything.  Some things are right person, right time, and it can really work out well like that.  I am actually glad I didn't get a degree, I would have had other opportunities in my life that I may have never ended up doing what I do now.  I am sure id be under less stress but it wouldn't be as rewarding as what I am doing now.  I wouldn't tell everyone to go out and start their own business, it's not for everyone for sure.  Some NEED those degrees or they will get no where.

[ScreenFoo]

Just to clarify, the GUI was an incidental topic, but I was referring to the random bloat so people can get more ignorant, and gear gets more expensive.  Didn't mean to get too off topic.  Although I'll take credit for derailing the topic if you guys keep agreeing like this.   I truly think there's a lot more to agree on than otherwise, although it doesn't make for very exciting reading.   

Enjoy the holidays.