when calling out a pms, how far do you go to match PMS col?

[Homer]

take the " pms color" into a room with different lighting than you mixed the ink = color shift. Take the garment outside in the sun =color shift. Send it down the dryer w/ too much heat =color shift. . .you guys know how many variables there are, hell, you use an older pantone book and you may be off by 5-10%, keep your pantone books in the dark btw. . .they will fade. We deal with pms matching in the sign world now and again. you use a matte laminate vs gloss, again -you get a color change. .I think it has more to do with control from the customer than actually being dead on, because in reality -who the hell cares, it looks good or it doesn't, little Tommy is not going to say, no thanks, I don't want that t-shirt, they used the wrong shade of red. For you fellas that can mix it spot on and do it well - you are a better man than I. . .I would kick them square in the balls. . .

just to clarify -I'm not saying "who cares" to you guys, i'm saying it to the large corporations requesting and rejecting orders because it's 5% off. . .

[tonypep]

take the " pms color" into a room with different lighting than you mixed the ink = color shift. Take the garment outside in the sun =color shift. Send it down the dryer w/ too much heat =color shift. . .you guys know how many variables there are, hell, you use an older pantone book and you may be off by 5-10%, keep your pantone books in the dark btw. . .they will fade. We deal with pms matching in the sign world now and again. you use a matte laminate vs gloss, again -you get a color change. .I think it has more to do with control from the customer than actually being dead on, because in reality -who the hell cares, it looks good or it doesn't, little Tommy is not going to say, no thanks, I don't want that t-shirt, they used the wrong shade of red. For you fellas that can mix it spot on and do it well - you are a better man than I. . .I would kick them square in the balls. . .

just to clarify -I'm not saying "who cares" to you guys, i'm saying it to the large corporations requesting and rejecting orders because it's 5% off. . .

For those who care the above phenomonem(s) is/are reffered to as metamerism.

[mk162]

What is funny is a local school uses 2 shades of green.  But they a really to close and it's hard to differentiate, so most printers darken the one green to make it easier to see.  Some don't and you can tell it.  Their sign outside is nearly impossible to read.

This is a case where I change it to make it look better...and they love it and never notice.

[Dottonedan]

. .I think it has more to do with control from the customer than actually being dead on, because in reality -who the hell cares, it looks good or it doesn't, little Tommy is not going to say, no thanks, I don't want that t-shirt, they used the wrong shade of red.

We all have that same feeling as well. They they "really" know what they are asking for?... Is it really all that important? Many times, I'd guess not.

An example of when it matters is like when you are the only printer in town. Everyone thinks your great. Then a new printer starts up and things change. That is because now, you are being compared to another.  Where is the connections?  here it is.

With prints, let's say you are running a job that has been run by another company in the past. Maybe they still are. It might just be that the previous shop still runs the majority of the shirts and you are being given the over flow. So two maybe three shops are running the same job. You will need to be printing the PMS Colors as close as possible. For orders and customer like this, your additional 20-40.00 PMS matching charge is unimportant. Match the colors and add it to the bill.

In retail, this happens all the time. They get the same print from multiple printers. Preferably from one, but it never stays that way. So this is where it's really and truly, honest to goodness for real this time, needs to match.  It's what they called a "bad show" at Disney.  People (customers) would flip through a shirt rack and notice that even tho the design was the same, we might have 2-3 different looks to the color. Some times, it could be WAY off base and stands out like a sore thumb. More often, those color issues are with ink and using a different printer. Some times, it's the garment color that is off. Ever set 3 black shirts together that are all three form different lots?  You can have some extreme differences. Some blue blacks, some brown blacks and some gray blacks. In most cases where we have varying ink colors that do not match the original approved sample, they all get returned and credited.

Logo's are the same. Little Tommy won't notice, but little Tommy isn't buying your printing service, the company is. So, Company X who is trying to maintain consistency and build a "brand" identity, wants you to feel it important to match his color. If not, then it's his/her job to move on and find someone who will.

Now, I'm right there with ya when it comes down to them getting too picky. Most buyers in these cases deal with art that gets sent out to many many different types of printers. Some off set, some screen print, some hot stamping, etc. All this art is being out on many types of substrates. Most times, all they know is what they hear from the owners or brand management. "Make sure the PMS colors are accurate". So, thats what they tell you. Only, they don't know that screen printing does not provide you the ability to be 100% on target when mixing inks. You can be close, but when someone says It's 100%, that is really an opinion. One can look at it and say yes. Another can say "well, It's very very close, but not dead on, try one more time.

Like many have said, run a blue thru the dryer too long and it can be darker. Need to go through a higher mesh to hold better detail?  That color will be slightly lighter or more translucent.

[mjrprint]

We mix according to the formula and then cross reference that with a wet sample and dry sample we have on file.

[Chadwick]

I got into a bit a rant on this earlier, but it's annoying, so, I rant, lol.

I see what you're saying Dan, I do several jobs that are also printed
by many other printers as well.
In these cases, I would hope the original art department
considers the final canvas when designing the art and picking final colors.
( at least look at it grayscale once?)
Hasn't happened for me that often, but one can hope.

I'd like to think the PMS book is a guideline, rather than biblical.
And yes, colors look different in every single differentiation of lighting, let alone on a substrate.

Fun, fun.
 

[Screened Gear]

I turned Coke down a couple years back.  Didn't need the headaches.

I wish Coke would call me to print their shirts. It would be fun to turn them down. I'm going to hold out for Pepsi I don't like printing red.

[mk162]

We printed for Coke in the past.  It wasn't horrible, but the new folks there were outrageous.  They wanted a price for same day turn, 1 day turn and 1 week turn, on about 24 quantities and up to 6 spot colors.  And it didn't matter what color the shirt was.  They came in with a 3 page spreadsheet that they wanted me to fill out.  I didn't have the time and I am glad I turned it down.  Same day service.

I wish I had a copy, I think but I am not sure that the prices had to be the same for 1-6 colors.  I think.  Ugh, I wish my brain worked better.

[Lizard]

First we have to understand how the pms system works and then we will realize there is no exact pms match.  The two original guides, coated and uncoated, were developed with exact formulas of inks printed on two different types of substrates,  Later came a third guide which was on Matte stock.  The newer guides are in a differrent type of material so if your guide, and that's what it is, is not from the last year or two it will not match the older guides which are printed on thicker material.  So take 186C and 186U and compare.  These are the same inks printed on different stock.  Now print on a different stock and 186 will be something different.  Which is correct?  They all are.  So now go into illustrator, the one that all these graphic designers use, and make a swatch of 186C and 186U.  No difference.  Thats because 186 on the monitor in illustrator makes a poor representation of color as it will appear on paper.  Now do the same in Corel and you will at least get a better example of the actual color on paper.  Now lets try and reproduce this on a shirt.  On a white shirt the color will look more like uncoated and on dark shirts it will look much more like coated but not exactly like a book printed on paper just like the coated and uncoated colors look different.  Same inks, different substrate, different appearance.

Now we want two different printers even using the same art, same films, but different screens, same mesh, coated with different emulsions, possible same inks, different environment, different flash temps, but same results...  not likely.  Good enough, probably but different.

[DanK]

We use a hole punch on our PMS fan right in the center of the color and place the printed sample under the hole of the PMS we are trying to match for better accuracy. It works kinda like when you adjust your monitor for color accuracy. You know - The color in the circle has to match the square around it.

Brilliant idea.  I love these simple gems of ideas. 

Many good points in the thread above about perception, fabric, lighting, wet/dry, etc.  We try to "read the room" a bit, some customers don't care and just want something close and some customers need and expect a perfect match.

I've found that many times ink manufacturers recipes are not correct for an ink match.  We're lucky to have a production manager who is super good at matching by eye (as tonypep stated he can do earlier) and most of the time, he can mix by eye quicker and more accurately than any recipe.  Me, I could not do that, but he can...  This skill becomes a little more important when you get into trying to mix and match colors on different garments and different colors with discharge inks.  Unless you're printing water base on white, every single discharge color we mix seems to be a custom mix.

I found that communicating about colors with customers is maybe even more important than having the ability to make the "perfect" pms match.  This article from Printwear a while back was pretty darn good:

http://printwearmag.com/article/business-management/communicating-about-color