Drag and Drop Browser Seps

[Dottonedan]

I have spent hours upon hours examining color and its math and science.

First, to validate that statement so that it might be accepted, I would expect for you to have earned some sort of degree in the field of color to help validate your proclamations. Any science degree of any nature might help.


To just say, "I have talked with some of the best color science minds in the world to consult with me to make sure that I know what I am talking about." Doesn't really mean that much. I mean, what do they know about screen printing?

lets proceed peacefully and correct the industry....

I'm game for being peaceful and telling the industry like it is.  You have a good product. I don't dispute that.

[AdvancedArtist]

In the blue corner we have the heavyweight champion! Revered for his sheer dexterity in the art of belligerence, and so far undefeated, yet slightly diminished! On the red corner we have the King of Kalm, with an endless stream of Tranquility his weapon of choice! Unmatched fairness and powerful patience are his tools of the trade!

Let the games begin!

Ps. HSB, Channels, Layers, blahblahblah. They are bytes in memory and there is no difference whatsoever between them, except PS likes to put color management in channels which it can't do in layers. But you can control that color management, so you can make them exactly the same. The argument is moot.

Besides, they're all the wrong color space. Sepping should be done in a linear space, be that Lab, XYZ or linear RGB, it's irrelevant. HSB is directly derived from (s)RGB in a linear fashion.And CMYK? Linear from "some" RGB (sRGB or Linear RGB): C1=255-R; M1=255-G; Y1=255-b; K=Max(C1,M1,Y1); C=C1-K; M=M1-K; Y=Y1-K;

Yum! Code! So, everybody's wrong. Who wins?

And about "Simulated Process": It's a Freakin' Farce!

"Sim Process" is stupid in the sense that Who The Hell is Actually Trying To Simulate Anything? We're printing Shirts! The name of the forum is "TheShirtForum" and Plastisol is the tool of choice. You can print in real process colors, YES, but when you are NOT printing with real process inks, it doesn't mean you're trying to simulate that! That's like saying your inkjet uses a "Simulated Monitor Separation System". WTF? It's totally different. It uses partitive mixing! CMY(K) is subtractive. RGB is additive. They are 3 different things and they can be related by formulas, yes, but they're different beasts!

I vote we from now on call CMYK printing "Simulated Tonal Spot Color Printing". I vote we call monitors "Real Life Visual Simulators". And when we print a car on a shirt, we call it a "Visual Vehicular Simulation".

I think, honestly, Calling it Sim Process or Tonal Spot, it doesn't matter. Plus, no one gives a crap where the seps come from: The printing is the same: Put ink on a screen and stroke. It's plastisol. It's a spot color. It's partitive mixing. It's a thing on its own and shouldn't be degraded by calling it "Simulated" Anything!

But it's water under the bridge. It has been established we call the printing of halftones using plastisol "Simulated Process". And so if we're going to accept that, then let's accept it. And how you get your seps doesn't change hwo you print it. Yes, SP may be a misnomer, but it's an accepted name nonetheless. Get over it.

Coudray, BTW, apparently (hearsay only, sorry) has done a bang-up job of formulating formulas that calculate color calculus. Calling him a guru reminds me of an Indian on a rug with incense wafting. I'm sure he knows his crap quite well. This makes him an expert, but not "the" expert.

HSB, for those who care to know, is a distorted color space. There's no smooth relation between it and RGB or sRGB. There is such a relation between L*a*b, RGB, sRGB (almost) and CIE XYZ. This is kind of important. A straight line drawn in the HSB space could have a corner in RGB, sRGB, XYZ and L*a*b. HSB is strongly related to L*u*v, but L*u*v does not have the discontinuity issues HSB does. Read more here. Read the whole section, or better yet, the whole page! Know your stuff. There's the Math, right there. No secrets. Just Real Understanding for All. No convincing needed! I mean, truth=truth is truth, no matter who says it or who tries to hide it.

That said, HSB seps will trip you up when you select a slightly pink red hue and a slightly red yellow hue, because the line between those colors cannot (ever) reach red (on the shirt). You can't mix ANY non-red to make red. Yet the HSB seps happily select the red and mark it as perfectly separated. That's bad... I mean, it's great but not the mathematically correct answer to the question: "How much of which inks do I need to make this color" for red.

Know what a color space is. It's 3D, so it requires a bit of spacial insight. Just be happy we only have 3 different kinds of color cones. If it were 4, it would have more dimensions than we're used to in our lives and it would be that much harder to grasp.

And don't forget: Put some Awesome into it. Awesome in, Awesome out!

Calm down Han this war is not over yet  are those veins popping out of your forehead?

[DDSol]

Hey Tom, did you read the damn article? Are there any unfamiliar terms? If so, you had better read up on them! Note: wiki wiki has links you can click on to find out wtf they're talking about.

You must be a quick reader. It's like 15 pages of details and math. Shapes of spaces: Important! Especially note this image. Especially note the "Force RGBCMY into a plane" part. It's what causes the lines in the HSB circle, which should be a hexagon (also see that on that cool page!).

There's so much for you to learn, my friend. When enlightenment has found you, then you shall rule the Color Separation Universe. Until then, you are just an amazed bystander, dazzled by the beauty, able to speak of it, but not know it deeply. Deep magic comes with deep dedication. It also is the reward for personal effort. The reward is not, nor an it ever be, the admiration of the blind masses. They cannot see, cannot understand and can not appreciate deep magic. They shall write it off as fiction. Ah yes, all us puny humans fear all we do not know. This has caused bloodshed and destruction for eons and we're not done with it, yet we lull ourselves into believing we live the age of enlightenment today. Totally not. I think there was something called the Renaissance and they all thought they were so freaking enlightened then too. Self deceit, conceit.

Be quick to listen and slow to speak. That's the path to wisdom. The crowd will come and follow the wise, often the wise don't seek the crowd, yet it comes to them as a burden in their quest for truth. Those who seek the crowd, in their quest for recognition, often miss the wisdom by miles...

[DDSol]

*** START OF PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT ***
For those just getting here, this thread was updated recently, starting with an announcement here and it about an alpha sep system running here. You may feel lost at this point .

To be clear, to run the alpha, your browser must support WebGL to run it. If it doesn't it'll just break without telling you how or why. It's an alpha test, so you'll have to forgive the mess. Get Chrome or Firefox. Safari on Snow Leopard works as well, I hear. If Firefox, turn on WebGL. Learn more about all this here.

This was a public announcement. Thank you for your cooperation.
*** END OF PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT ***

[Sbrem]

Man, I wish I had time to read all of this. I'll just keep checking in for the real deal, which seems sooooo close...

Steve

[DDSol]

Real deal coming up! At some point! In the future!

Sorry... Yes, it's in the making (as a matter of fact, I've been working quite hard at it. I have the sepper done. That is, the teensie little piece of core engine that does the actual "pixel splitting" (is that Trademarked?). So, yes it takes a color and spews this huge pile of info out about it. 1334 bits per pixel. So, if you upload an image of, say, 100MB, that's compressed at, say 5:1, so it's really 500MB, at, say, 32bits/pixel (RGBA), now my program takes it and makes it: 28GB!!! Yes, you'll need several Blue-Ray disks to burn it on.

Wow! How boring! Another update that translates to "Nothing to see folks. It's not ready! Move along..."

It happens, sometimes, but today I have something special: A shirt! You can now see a shirt under your art!

Just because you would NEVER place your art there on the shirt does not mean it's okay to fling insults at me. It's a work in progress after all. So bear with me!

Now, I will Probably (I'm not promising anything, because I'm actually getting sick (literally) of being overworked) finish a RUDIMENTARY sep renderer Very Soon. I won't have Halftoning yet (which is actually quite crucial, considering seps can be multi-angled). It will be annoying to use! And you'll think DARN! I wish I could change (fill in setting here)! You can't because there's no thingamabob to twiddle with it, nowhere to store your precious preferences and you don't have an account to log in to! Because you can't! But You'll Have Real Films (provided you can halftone that stuff, unless I have it working then) and (Yes!) Real Shirts! It will be a feast for the critics! Like flocks of vultures they will come down to peck my eyeballs out! Don't miss it...

As you may realize, there's a LOT involved in making a web software thing. You have to keep your head in the cloud for your processing needs... and you have to wrangle cumulonimbi into submission! (And they run fast! On Linux!) And to top it all off, for some ridiculous reason everything is written in code! I spend an aweful lot of time decoding and encoding and translating and hacking, cracking, patching, compiling, debugging (Moths everywhere, I tell ya! I need me some Raid!). All-in-all, it's a miracle I'm still alive. Oh, and making progress too!

Okay, enough with the hilarity of it all. Back to work people! We need More Shirts! Put that nose to that grindstone! Oh, and check this out! (It's a task, not a break, so you can tell that to your boss. Call it "Evaluation". If you are the boss, use it as an excuse!)

Oh, btw, you're probably thinking "Hey, that shirt is some ugly blue! I want to print on black! Why can't I print on black?". Good question! Next question!?

[DDSol]

Never mind. I forgot: Normal people have off on Sunday. I think I hear crickets... 

[Itsa Little CrOoked]

Hey Tom, did you read the damn article? Are there any unfamiliar terms? If so, you had better read up on them! Note: wiki wiki has links you can click on to find out wtf they're talking about.

You must be a quick reader. It's like 15 pages of details and math. Shapes of spaces: Important! Especially note this image. Especially note the "Force RGBCMY into a plane" part. It's what causes the lines in the HSB circle, which should be a hexagon (also see that on that cool page!).

There's so much for you to learn, my friend. When enlightenment has found you, then you shall rule the Color Separation Universe. Until then, you are just an amazed bystander, dazzled by the beauty, able to speak of it, but not know it deeply. Deep magic comes with deep dedication. It also is the reward for personal effort. The reward is not, nor an it ever be, the admiration of the blind masses. They cannot see, cannot understand and can not appreciate deep magic. They shall write it off as fiction. Ah yes, all us puny humans fear all we do not know. This has caused bloodshed and destruction for eons and we're not done with it, yet we lull ourselves into believing we live the age of enlightenment today. Totally not. I think there was something called the Renaissance and they all thought they were so freaking enlightened then too. Self deceit, conceit.

Be quick to listen and slow to speak. That's the path to wisdom. The crowd will come and follow the wise, often the wise don't seek the crowd, yet it comes to them as a burden in their quest for truth. Those who seek the crowd, in their quest for recognition, often miss the wisdom by miles...

You may in fact have the tiger by the tail, I don't know.... but I find your posts sometimes arrogant and unnecessarily so. I tire of bloviation sooner than most, perhaps.

Anyhow, I find most of the time, the people who have truly superior expertise, knowledge or skills are pretty gracious to those less skilled. They may also be tight lipped, but that is a topic for another day.

I too, am interested in what you are doing...but less so with each self aggrandized post.

"The louder he spoke of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons." is a GREAT quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson (I think)

Unassailable Self Confidence, is NOT one of The Spiritual Gifts as far as I can tell.

[DDSol]

Well, you do of course have a point and a half. However, I can't help it. It's because I'm such am incredible nerd that I'm compelled to be so long winded. It's a but of a game to me. A word-play, so to speak.

That said, these things are so clear to me that they seem obvious. That's not something I'm proud of, it's just something that is. As such I see no cause for boasting. That post, tho, was to Thomas, who wants to tell everyone everything there is to know. He wants to "correct the industry", by his own words. As such... well, he needs to read those articles.

As for all the others, let it lay where it is, I feel. To know why light reflects and that it's made up of photons (yes, you know those little bouncy friends), who cares?

And as an aside: The self confidence isn't that. It's confidence in the numbers. They are precise to the 20th decimal and not because I made it so. So I think it works not because of me, but in spite of me.

Doing a bit of rambling keeps me sane.

I'd like to state, though, that I do not claim what I have no claim on. I only claim to know what I know. You won't find me claiming that I know what I don't (I wouldn't dare). There's an awful lot of stuff I have no clue about and won't talk about either.

Your quote of mine, btw was an attempt to push Tom to do some reading on material that is not held as a secret to be revealed with great noise, but material that is readily available for everyone to see. Reinventing the wheel seems to be a bit of a time waster to me, although the eureka moment may make it worth it all anyway.

In closing: You're right of course. I have some bad flaws and I can't promise a deadline by which I'll have purged myself of them. It will have to be my shame to bear. You even indicate that I'm unlikely to actually know what I'm talking about, considering that I suck in the graciousmess department. I can't wait to find out what I'm talking about. Onwards! Adventure awaits!

[IntegrityShirts]

This thread  up to now:

[tpitman]

I was thinking upon reading this thread earlier this morning that somebody really needed to get laid.

Glad I didn't post that thought. 

[Sbrem]

That happens to me too when I'm reading ...

Steve