Quick CCI W-Base Review

[ZooCity]

I was honestly wondering why both the D-Base and W-Base were offered from CCI- what's the difference in them and/or advantage to stocking two bases?  Does the W-Base perform better as an unactivated ink?

Since no one at CCI has been able to answer the question, I bought a gallon of W-Base and ran it on a few orders printing non activated, dark waterbase inks going onto lights.  Also tore through a gallon of Spot Black which appears to be made with the W-Base as well, it has very similar characteristics.

Emphatic thumbs down.  Look fine in the bucket but then you add pigs and go to press and the stuff is almost magical in how bad it is on press- it is at once too runny and extremely prone to dry in.  Aside from the hyper aggressive wb flatstock inks we use (TW Graphics) I didn't know it was possible for an ink to be too wet/runny yet locking into the screen.

We gave it a very fair run both on auto and manual over 150, 180 and 225 S mesh, both single and multi color jobs of various sizes. To make sure it wasn't shop conditions I was careful to note how any D-Base inks in the same run were doing and they never had a problem.  We also just ducted in a big ass swamp cooler so conditions are better than ever, much cooler and wetter air in here. We load our CCI bases at 20% pigment typically.

Is W-Base printable and does it cure correctly?  Yes, but it's not worth the ag when there are much friendlier bases out there that perform equally well, just run unactivated D-Base.  CCI has a great ink system but I guess you can't win 'em all.

[ebscreen]

Good to know. Still looking for that pre-mix WB black...

Rutland ink tech confirmed, straight from the horses mouth, that yes, un-activated discharge base
can be used with pigments on lights. Costs more but there it is. No more doubt, though plenty
of testing on our end had calmed my fears.

Pigment loading should be based on the pigment and not the base though. He said that
there is only one way of making discharge base, and pigment loading capabilities should
be roughly the same across the board.

Pigments are a different story however. For fact the Rutland are a least 2x stronger than just
about any other system out there. %20 loading of Rutland pigs would net you some crocking issues I do believe.


(I've printed CCI base/Rutland pigments on flatstock with good results. TW is nice but it does
perform the way you've described. Just saying...)

[ZooCity]

I had the same concerns.  Texcharge didn't really perform as an unactivated WB so my mind went down the path of thinking that the bases should be different.  Maybe so but it does seem that D-Base is fine as unactivated WB ink.

I keep bringing up the pig loading thing with CCI but have gotten nowhere.  You can't make a blanket statement that, in their case, 30% load is max.  It's unique to each pigment.  I know this from using Wilflex PCs, not trying to be a smartass, it's just the nature of the beast.  We run 20% as it's enough punch for vibrant color but has proven safe so far.   Yep, the CCI pigs are watery, that's fine by me though, easier to mix a quart and the cost is reasonable. 

I'm thinking D-Base premium + CCI Black pig for our premix black at this point.

[Screened Gear]

Zoo,

Save yourself some trouble and do d-base basic not premium. The difference in the two is that the premium has like 5% white pigment added to boost colors on darks, helps cover better and adds brightness. Why add black to overpower that white when you can start with a clear like d-base basic (cheaper too)

The only difference in the D-base and W-base that I have heard is the W-Base has more binding agents.

They sell a retarder also. I have only used it in some reds so far. Anyone else use it? any advice on using it?

[ebscreen]

We have the retarder from CCI, the extender as well. Haven't broken into it yet though, still have gallons
of PrintGen.

Watch your pigment load on black ink, it will quickly turn into cottage cheese.

[ZooCity]

CCI needs to get their sh!t together and decide what's in their ink.  I was told that D-Base premium has a "finer ground" to pass through higher mesh counts by CCI, not that white is added to it.  I switched to premium since we do indeed print through higher mesh counts at times, such as with sim pro.   So which is it?  I haven't noticed any white in the "premium" throwing off mixes though if that is the case but I'd like to know what's in my ink.

What really dug the grave for W-Base is I had to open our gal of retarder for the first time ever.  We've never needed any additives in the textile WB and DC inks we run (unless you count ZFS and water as additives) and I intend to keep it that way.

Thanks for the heads up on the black pig.  I'm thinking I'll just keep adding and swatch testing until it looks rich enough for us and stop there.

[screenprintguy]

we've never tried those, just use D-White, and D-Base. If we are printing just a wb print, we just won't activate it and use the D-Base as a clear. 15% pigment load using Matsui's pigments, 2% Fixer En, 2% PrintGen, never an issue.

[Screened Gear]

Zoo,

Your rep said the premium was ground finer? I have not tested the premium to the basic to know how much white is in it. If your loading 20 percent pigment your over powering the premiums added white in my guess. I know a person that is not suppose to post any more that can clarify this. (He gave them the formula for the premium).

Zoo I have to say my experience with CCI has been nothing but amazing. My rep is in here about every 6 weeks. He always lets me know what is new and goes out of his way to find me info if i need it. The one thing he does not do is guess at answers. He will tell me he does not know. They are sales people not the company. My sales guy has his sh!t together.

[ZooCity]

Yes he said it was made to print through higher mesh counts.

What did your rep say about w-base v. d-base v. d-base premium and what's the word on % pigment load for each pig color in each base? 

That's all I'm asking for, just basic info.  It's not the end of the world, I'm clearly working around it just fine, but it seems odd that you wouldn't want to provide this information.  I mean, maybe there's something I'm doing wrong with W-Base and having just a little info would make a world of difference? 

I expect a mfg to educate me on their product so I can use it right but I can see that asking for answers here is making me look like a d!ck.  Not trying to be one.  Love the ink, use it everyday, great service and we use a lot of their other chem too. 

[Screened Gear]

Yes he said it was made to print through higher mesh counts.

What did your rep say about w-base v. d-base v. d-base premium and what's the word on % pigment load for each pig color in each base? 

That's all I'm asking for, just basic info.  It's not the end of the world, I'm clearly working around it just fine, but it seems odd that you wouldn't want to provide this information.  I mean, maybe there's something I'm doing wrong with W-Base and having just a little info would make a world of difference? 

I expect a mfg to educate me on their product so I can use it right but I can see that asking for answers here is making me look like a d!ck.  Not trying to be one.  Love the ink, use it everyday, great service and we use a lot of their other chem too.

You’re not being a dick. I understand your frustration. This is all I know D-base and D-base premium are the same except the added white in the premium. There may be small other differences but nothing that we need to know to print. (max pigment loads on those should be the same) The bottle of pigment said 30%. I am guessing that means there is enough binder in the base to hold 30 percent pigment. It does not mean (IMO) the ink will print perfectly with no dry in or chunking at 30% pigment the ink . You should never need 30 percent. These inks and pigments are new compared to other inks on the market. I know they are changing them all the time to perform better. I am guessing they don’t answer a lot of the questions because even they don’t know the extent the inks are capable of. Remember they are not printers they are just chemical guys. It’s our job as Professional Printers to let them know what the inks are capable of. Remember they have a liability when it comes to them saying what the performance of the ink is. It’s like M&R saying their press can print 2400 shirts and hour. They don’t say that they say like 700. Knowing the press can do 700 easily in any shop with any set up.

If you have any spacifc questions IM me and I will ask my guy to get the answer.

[CCI TECH]

Guys, here is some info.

W-base: is water base extender for printing on white or light colored garments when mixed with the CMS pigments. If you had trouble drying in the screen and you may as it is summer and hot out, then use the the WB retarder.
http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=W%252dBASE-CLEAR-EXTENDER-BASE

WB- Retarder is for all the water based and or discharge inks. Add 5% by weight to retard drying in the screen.
http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=WB-RETARDER-WATER-BASED-INK-RETARDER

D-Base: Is discharge base for discharging onto dark 100% cotton garments and some 80/20, 50/50 cotton poly blends. Test to make sure the garment will discharge before printing. CMS pigments can be used at 10% by weight with D-base and load up to 30% by weight. Every shirt manufacturer is different and will give different brightness when discharged, start at 10% CMS and test for color. Mix the pigment to the base before adding the powder. Add D-Powder to activate the D-base, use 4 to 6% by weight. Use less powder on thinner American apparel type shirts, and use 6% on heavier cotton shirts. D-Base is different chemistry than that of W-Base. W-Base has better wash fastness than D-base un-activated. D-base must be activated to have good wash fastness.

D-Base Premium: Is discharge base with characteristics that make it print easier with less drying in the screen. There are additional Binder amounts and other components that make the D-Base Premium superior. D-Base is brighter and give better color reflection. Binder is what binds the pigment to the fiber. Some manufactures sell cheaper discharge bases meaning they put less binder into the ink which makes them cheaper. This changes the wash fastness. D-base premium is build to a high quality standard giving it better color after washing than other manufactures.
http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=D%252dBASE-PREMIUM-CLEAR-MIXING-BASE

CMS: Color Matching System which is build to work with the CMS software and the 14 color pigments. The system is pms color based at 10% pigment to 90% base. It is simple to use a PMS book to use the formula from the book. Move the decimal in the pms book one space to the left, this now becomes your 10% formula to get color. Add 90% base to that formula and you have your correct ink. Multiple both X the amount you want to get for your the formula.
http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=CMS-%252d-COLOR-MIXING-SYSTEM

Envirosolv: Is a presswash for waterbase. It washes up the stuck pigment from the mesh. It can be used in the washout booth to remover  new water based stains.
http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=ENVIROSOLV%C2%AE-WATER-BASED-INK-CLEANER

If you have questions about our products please contact me directly.

Respectfully,

Tadd Armbruster

Technical Product Manager
Chemical Consultants Inc.
1850 Wild Turkey Circle
Corona, Ca. 92880. USA


Cell: 562-577-4028

 
 

[ebscreen]

WELCOME TADD!!!

I think I speak for many when I say we love CCI products at our shop, but getting solid info on them
can be difficult at best. Your participation here will not go unappreciated!

[ZooCity]

WELCOME TADD!!!

I think I speak for many when I say we love CCI products at our shop, but getting solid info on them
can be difficult at best. Your participation here will not go unappreciated!

Heck no it won't, thanks so much for getting on here to fill us in with some info Tadd.

Couple of ?s I still have:

• Does CCI recommend the use of D-Base Premium + pigments as unactivated waterbase ink?  Clearly you guys want the W-Base used for this but it's press characteristics just aren't cutting it for us.  Our shop is a luxurious 75˚ thanks to a constant supply of cool, wet air from our large swamp cooler.  Inks shouldn't be drying in under these conditions and none of the other CCI bases or any other brand of textile waterbase ink have exhibited dry in for us.  For those of us who don't want to run W-Base or would simply prefer to stock one base could the Premium with it's additional amount of binder get it done?
• What are the "other components" aside from increased binder in the D-Base Premium?  Is there white in there as others have stated?
• From the TDS' and your post here it's clear that pigment load can range from 10-30%.  Knowing that each base has different amounts of binder and characteristics, what is the specific max loading for each base?  Is the max pig load unique to each pigment?

We have been using Envirosolve for quite a few months and it's perfect for use with these inks and melts down Wilflex Epic plastisol as well.  Great price to boot.  Can Envirosolve be used in a recirculating tank?

Thanks!

[Screened Gear]

Hey Tadd,

Welcome to the board. I believe I met you in vegus last year. (Sorry really bad with names). I had a question about the retartder. I heard that it does not effect cure time in the dryer. Is that true?

[CCI TECH]

Sorry not to rely sooner I traveled to Dallas today.

@ Jon, The retarder at 10% added will not effect drying time. Over that amount it could slow curing. Run a test as all dryers are different.

@ EB Screen, Thanks for the info. Feel free to call if you have questions.

@ Zoo City, 1.) We do not recommend using any D-Base un-activated. It does not wash as well as the W-Base with pigment. Try adding WB retarder up to 10%. This should retard the W-base and reduce drying in the screen.

2.) The D-Base Premium does not have white in it. There is additional chemistry and binder over the Standard base. It has brighter color and better wash fastness.

3.) The max load of all of our base inks is 30% of pigment.

4.) I would not use Envirosolv in a recirc tank.

I will visit your shop in Montana in Late September or October to see the problems first hand.

Cheers